Genocide, as in the legal definition, requires intent. As far as I see it Germany is not even trying to deny anything Israel did or does, all the government is basically doing is arguing “Your honour, our client can’t have intent because they’re demonstrably criminally insane, we know because we caused that insanity”. Not in that many words, but to that effect.
Germans: what genocide?
Submitted 7 months ago by Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world to [deleted]
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/23a26f92-a0f6-4185-b073-784bc75215cc.jpeg
Comments
barsoap@lemm.ee 7 months ago
pyr0ball@lemmy.world 7 months ago
And a sane person/nation would willingly engage in genocide? Insanity doesn’t negate intent. Inb4 India China and Russia of course but you take my point?
barsoap@lemm.ee 7 months ago
With individuals, criminal insanity means that you can’t be held accountable on account of not being able to tell good from wrong: Lacking that ability, you cannot have an intent to do wrong. It’s also not a get out of jail free card, it’s quite often a get locked into a closed institution for an indeterminate amount of time card, until the doctors decide that you’re not a danger to yourself or society. Being judged criminally insane can turn a five-year sentence into de facto life.
And it’s not like I personally agree that the notion is really applicable to a people, or that it should be considered when it comes to the genocide convention, but darn someone has to be their defence lawyer – they certainly aren’t capable of defending themselves, pretty much everything they say just makes people more mad, justifiably so. Given Germany’s history don’t blame us for taking on that role.
HopFlop@discuss.tchncs.de 7 months ago
The thing about insanity is made up by the person eho posted that comment. What they actually say is that Israel’s intent is to defend themselves against the armed attacks by the Hamas, so self-defense, and not to commit a genocide.
HopFlop@discuss.tchncs.de 7 months ago
Your honour, our client can’t have intent because they’re demonstrably criminally insane, we know because we caused that insanity". Not in that many words, but to that effect.
That’s completely made up, either by you or by another person. What they actually say is that Israel’s intent is to defend against the armed attacks of the Hamas, not to commit a genocide.
More like: “Your honor, our client is just trying to defend themselves, they are not doing this to commit a genocide”
barsoap@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Mere defensive intent does not match up with the evidence unless you assume psychosis, and Germany very much is not denying the evidence.
bartolomeo@suppo.fi 7 months ago
The insanity started way before Nazi genocide:
barsoap@lemm.ee 7 months ago
That’s a spark, not the kindling, much less the oil we poured on top of it. Without that, the “holocaust oil”, Israelis would probably be like French levels of patriotic today.
volvoxvsmarla@lemm.ee 7 months ago
(Preface: I am team genocide. I also live in Germany. Germany’s politics are a disgrace, but I digress.)
What annoys me about this is that this discussion gets so much media attention and focus, while it doesn’t matter in this very moment. I understand that there are implications if it will be defined as a genocide. But right now people are being killed every day en masse and they frankly give a crap about whether they died in a mass murder or terrorist attack or a genocide.
It reminds me of the early days of the Ukraine war when everyone was so obsessed with comparing Putin to Hitler (Putler is still a popular term) and the discussion was high on whether Putins actions amount to fascism or not, with a lot of internet laymen but also experts on that subject chiming in. When I asked a half Russian, half Ukrainian what their opinion was, their reply was something like “who the fuck cares? Call it a chicken pea pie, nobody cares, people are being killed, I don’t give a crap. Somewhen in the future people will be looking back and asking the same question, but it doesn’t matter right now.” And it stuck with me.
If I understand correctly, the ICJ will rule again on the case in a couple of years (?), which obviously isn’t relevant right now. It seems like the ruling would have an aftermath in retrospect but even if they ruled it were a genocide today, nothing much would change directly - but please correct me if I am wrong here.
But what definitely doesn’t matter is what we think. What matters is what is happening. And it doesn’t need a name to be evil and detrimental.
AreaSIX@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Germany has supplied 30% of Israel s weapons, and has continued to do so during this ongoing genocide. If Germany or the US were to acknowledge the ongoing genocide, they’d have to stop supplying those arms immediately, hence stopping the annihilation of Gaza. So it’s of immense importance to keep repeating what most of the world already acknowledges: this is a genocide, and those arming the perpetrators are complicit in their crimes. History will not judge Germany well, but I guess that’s not exactly a new thing for a veteran perpetrator of genocide.
volvoxvsmarla@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Ok, this sounds valid. But what would oblige them to stop them from delivering weapons if the ICJ rules it is a genocide? Is there any legal obligation, can they denounce the ruling?
If you mean acknowledge in a sense of civilian/political acknowledgement, then my issue with it is that it shouldn’t be necessary to be this anal about some definition. It’s splitting hairs on cut off heads. Supporting mass murder is wrong in the context of genocide as well as outside of it. It shouldn’t be necessary to convince the governments that it is a genocide to convince them to stop supplying weapons.
100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it 7 months ago
American companies allegedly kept on working with Nazi Germany after the US entered the war. Therefore, unless Israel gets on the UN stand and says, “Yes, we’re committing genocide and y’all’s are next” no one will let non-white deaths affect the bottom line.
melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee 7 months ago
”i am team genocide"
-volvoxvsmarla
I dunno, can we trust them?
volvoxvsmarla@lemm.ee 7 months ago
I hope I won’t be remembered for this quote. I’ll choose my phrasing better in the future.
JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Siegfried@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Well, he is right, its mass murdering, but not genocide.
DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 7 months ago
Wait until we find his 2012 Twitter handle calling everyone but Titans unnecessary
desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 months ago
If I randomly kill all humans it would be genocide. I absolutely hate the common usage of the word, but killing all humans definitely would be genocide.
yetAnotherUser@feddit.de 7 months ago
Killing 50% of any one people is genocide, right? For example, the Nazis killed up to 50% of European Romani people and it is classified as a genocide.
Let’s assume killing 50% of n peoples is genocide.
Since killing 50% of n peoples is genocide, killing 50% of n+1 peoples must also be genocide, else a number N would exist such that killing 50% of N - 1 peoples is genocide but killing 50% of N peoples is not. The existence of such a number N would be quite contradictory, as it would imply one could undo genocide by killing more people. Additionally, if one were to first kill 50% of N - 1 people and then kill 50% of one more people some time later, both events would be classified as genocide, since killing 50% of one people is assumed to be genocide.
Therefore, Thanos did in fact commit genocide.
jkrtn@lemmy.ml 7 months ago
Israel: [Murdering journalists and foreign aid workers] see? It’s not only Palestinians, it’s random.
PiratePanPan@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 months ago
HawlSera@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Germany, are you going to be responsible for EVERY FUCKING World War you humans fight in!?! Liiiike feck.
evranch@lemmy.ca 7 months ago
I don’t get this WW3 talk that seems to only be here on Lemmy. Like, does anyone actually expect any countries with significant global influence to line up behind Hamas?
The closest I can think of is Iran, and they’re a regional power at best, and they prefer to work behind the scenes.
No, this will be a nasty little “tempest in a teacup” as always, with lots of onlookers wagging fingers but doing nothing. This is what all neighbouring nations are already doing - in fact they love the fact that Israel’s disproportionate response is damaging their reputation. They’re more than happy to stand by and watch, as they’re the ones who set Gaza up as a punching bag in the first place.
Ukraine is far more likely to evolve into a global conflict, especially with Ukraine’s position weakening and Poland chomping at the bit to jump in.
HawlSera@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Look if Germany isn’t evil, is it even a World War sequel. Come on, the writers need to stay consistent
melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Is all champaigne from france?
If Germany’s not on the wrong(er) side, its just a sparkling global conflict.
Randelung@lemmy.world 7 months ago
😂 but also 😭
sentinelthesalty@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Germany: “Fucking casuals, you call that a genocide!”
computerscientistI@lemm.ee 7 months ago
As a German: I think it really is not our job to criticise Israel/the jewish people. There are about 200 other countries that are capable of voicing their opinions. I seriously doubt Hamas left Israel much of a choice, though. They are still keeping and mistreating hostages. What is Israel supposed to do? Passively standing by and watching their hostages being impregnated?
RustyShackleford@programming.dev 7 months ago
What is Israel supposed to do? Passively standing by and watching their hostages being impregnated?
No, obviously not.
Killing international aid workers, Palestinian men, women, and children indiscriminately doesn’t seem like a viable solution either and calling everyone who criticizes your military policy as “anti-Semitic” is not what you should do either.
smonkeysnilas@feddit.de 7 months ago
But it’s not so simple and the media reporting is sometimes super biased and misrepresenting things. For example the aid workers that got killed. Before that happened the convoi got hijacked by Hamas fighters that actually started firing first. Somehow all the reports leave out that quite important detail.
hairinmybellybutt@lemmy.world 7 months ago
what about the genocide claim buddy bud
Luccus@feddit.de 7 months ago
As a German, I feel like, we should be capable of seeing 10th of thousands of people die, including reporters and literal children, and fathom that this… is bad.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 7 months ago
"“The Jewish People” Germany really goes hard on their propaganda.
Those IDF rape fanfics really go hard in Germany. Too bad all those rape accusations turned out to be false like the 40 beheaded babies.
The only party torturing their hostages and even cutting off their limbs is also israel: Israeli doctor says detained Palestinians are undergoing ‘routine’ amputations for handcuff injuries
nednobbins@lemm.ee 7 months ago
It’s one thing to refrain from commenting but supporting Israel makes it clear that Germany learned nothing.
sudo@programming.dev 7 months ago
None of the hostages were raped or are being raped. This is total Birth of a Nation, “They’re coming for our white women”_ bullshit.
zerog_bandit@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Glad to see Germany addressing the conflict rationally, unlike half of Lemmy which just screams “genocide!” in every thread.
Still waiting to hear an explanation for why there are no Jews in Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, and Egypt, when there were historical populations in those countries (hint: it’s the G word)
PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 7 months ago
You mean that G word that happened right after Israel came into existence and proceeded to demonstrate its intent to conquer by immediately disregarding its own borders with Palestine?
Genocide ain’t it no matter who’s doing it and for what reason, but it’s real fuckin’ convenient to just ignore a major instigating factor that just happens to be the country you’re trying to apologism for.
nonailsleft@lemm.ee 7 months ago
You mean after the Arab neighbours started a G on the jews as soon as the Brits left?
Sure the jews aren’t much better but it’s clear they’d be G’d themselves if it wasn’t for their weapons
ZeroTHM@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Too rational for Lemmy.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 7 months ago
zerog_bandit@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Hamas supporters so deranged that they’re trying to use the past to guilt today’s Germans.
Meansalladknifehands@lemm.ee 7 months ago
When you say Hamas supporter, do you mean netanyahu?
lightnegative@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Everyone seems to be forgetting who started this in the first place.
Israel is sure as hell gonna finish it
lilsolar@sh.itjust.works 7 months ago
Everyone seems to be forgetting who started this in the first place.
Israel?
endhits@lemmy.world 7 months ago
History didn’t start on Oct 7th.
Ascend910@lemmy.ml 7 months ago
Right now it seems like the effect of people who got bullied in the past is likely to bully people in the future
Mr_Dr_Oink@lemmy.world 7 months ago
I guess they have fairly high standards when it comes to genicide…
Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world 7 months ago
In hindsight this should have been posted on political meme.
My apologies, I’m new to lemmy. Thank you for your patience yall.
ComradeKhoumrag@infosec.pub 7 months ago
A shitpost’s a shitpost damnit
onewaymars@lemm.ee 7 months ago
great meme OP or should i say groß meme!
moon@lemmy.cafe 7 months ago
Can you blame them? This is what happens when you use the metric system
A_Chilean_Cyborg@feddit.cl 7 months ago
American coping™
Treczoks@lemmy.world 7 months ago
That is one of Germanys foreign politics problems that for historic reasons it cannot critizise whatever Israel does. If they started beheading children in Jerusalem or bombed orphanages, the German government will turn a blind eye.
S_204@lemm.ee 7 months ago
I’m inclined to believe they have the expertise and experience to make this claim.
Randelung@lemmy.world 7 months ago
In a world where they don’t have their own agenda (e.g. military income), I’d agree.
In THIS world, where the AfD has a considerable voice and the government blocks itself on gender inclusive language and rather does nothing, I don’t. Let’s not call it genocide, then we don’t have to act. Let’s not be too hasty about Putin so we don’t have to send any help. Let’s think about weed legalization for half a decade to be sure.
I think they’re being obstructive on purpose.
Dasus@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Ofc they are.
War is good business.
So are illegal drugs.
Politicians are often on the side of “what makes the most money to the people who give me money”, I’ve found. Wish it weren’t so.
melpomenesclevage@lemm.ee 7 months ago
I’m not. They’ve lied about this shit before.
GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip 7 months ago
Staatsräson 🫠
Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world 7 months ago
We should cancel Israel on the internet already
cumskin_genocide@lemm.ee 7 months ago
They should just give all of Palestine to Israel and be done with it. Give the Palestinians reservations in the US or Canada and just let the Jews live in peace. It’s not like Israel is going to cause any problems since it would have all of Israel for itself at that point.
Ultragigagigantic@lemmy.world 7 months ago
MetaCubed@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Ah yes, complete the ethnic cleansing of the region… What a wonderfully ethical suggestion /s
Absolutely deranged take.
woelkchen@lemmy.world 7 months ago
They should just give all of Palestine to Israel and be done with it.
It already is Israeli territory. There is no state of Palestine. Attempts to formalize statehood were vetoed by the US on Israel’s request. Israel opposes Palestinian statehood. There are two formally autonomous regions on Israeli ground, West Bank and Gaza, but those aren’t states.
VerbFlow@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Just give all of Israel to Palestine. It belongs to the Palestinian people. The former Israelis can live in Palestine–there were already Palestinian Jews–but they do not deserve an Israeli government, and ought to give the Palestinians their homes back.
VerbFlow@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Forgot to say: Is your username “cumskin_genocide”? I’m not using it as an argument, just amused
TheGunslinger@lemmy.world 7 months ago
I don’t agree with it, but at least people would stop being slaughtered like cattle.
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 months ago
it took me way too long to figure out the joke on this one.
I’ll see myself out now.
Aceticon@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Should say “Genocide Denial Expert” in that plaque.
CameronDev@programming.dev 7 months ago
Its only a genocide if it comes from the third reich. Anything else is just sparkling ethnic cleansing.
100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it 7 months ago
Japan, after decimating Ainu people and brutally murdering Chinese and Korean people in the occupied territories: “uwu”
Etterra@lemmy.world 7 months ago
It’s probably all the radiation.