Submitted 10 months ago by fne8w2ah@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/03/new-york-police-encrypt-radio-nypd-transparency
Aside from the transparency issue, did you see how much it’s going to cost?
Four hundred million dollars! The city is cutting back on pretty much everything else but wants to spend that on police radios.
Everyone has to tighten their belts while the thin blue line gets fatter and more dangerous.
No matter what it costs, we will shield police from accountability.
Name a price and go fuck yourself.
One city’s cops want more than a dollar per US citizen for something I could personally implement for a small group of people?
They actually need to focus on hospital communications. It's scary what all you can pick up from paging systems with a $20 USB SDR and a laptop.
I worked in a hospital, and patient names should never be paged. Room numbers and alert codes are not PHI, and generally they would say “Adult Male blah blah blah…”. Unfortunately, in concrete mazes, paging is still the most reliable (as seen by how easy it is for others to see). And when you’re as important as a doctor, you need reliability.
I find it fascinating how in the United States police radio communications aren’t encrypted and therefore anyone can listen to them. In my European country all emergency service communications are TETRA encrypted.
Well, for starters, European police are actually trained professionals (in general, much more so than American police) and have different oversight. American police also handle a wider variety of things that really aren’t law enforcement - things that should be handled by other kinds of professionals.
What do American police handle that European police do not?
Which had/has a built-in backdoor for years.
EU security forces didn’t really care as TEA2 wasn’t backdoored. It’s a mid-90s standard with different encryption levels for different actors, it should be blindingly obvious that whatever is publicly available is backdoored. You may not like it, I do not like it, but it should’ve been obvious.
The actual own goal was that while all EU security forces always had access to the secure stuff plenty of operators of critical infrastructure (think energy suppliers etc) used TEA1 as that’s what they were given. Also some EU forces bought TEA1 equipment presumably because they didn’t know what they were doing, with or without help from manufactures with an overstock of TEA1 radios.
Here’s a 37c3 talk about the whole thing, from the people actually breaching the protocol.
Not all llaw enforcement or emergency services are in the clear. The Feds are all encrypted (except for some intentional in-the-clear channels for open comms).
One of the biggest criticisms after 9/11 was the lack of easy comms across agencies because of radio set ups, different 10-codes, etc.
Hopefully this is something they are accounting for with this change.
Also $400m doesn’t seem that crazy for an endeavor like this given the size of NYPD.
40k officers and staff + backhaul + tower upgrades /$400m
And is that $400m entire lifecycle cost? Over 5-10 years or whatever that’s really not insane.
It seems insane that they were communicating out in the open.
On the one hand, you probably hear all kinds of cool shit. On the other hand, how in the fuck are they just discussing all their sensitive shit out in the open??
They don’t? I mean, you can listen to them, they are not discussing sensitive shit because it’s public.
I think most eu countries use tetra for emergency services. it’s great for cross service group/task communications also.
Yeah police radio should never be encrypted.
I suspect it would be helpful for protecting sensitive situations. Currently (at least with EMS) they call each other’s cellphones for that, not ideal.
Newsflash: Cellphone calls are not encrypted either, believe it or not.
Or fucking use telegram or Whatsapp. Anything except the official equipment.
This isn’t just bad news for citizen monitoring of the police, it’s bad news for the media as well. I worked at a news station. We had multiple police scanners going in case something big happened. The cops want no cameras around.
Surprised it’s not encrypted in the first place. You haven’t been able to listen to police communications in Finland since the 90’s
Apparently Americans feel like this is a way of keeping taps on what their police do.
It’s interesting. One argument for encrypting is that it keeps private info of the people involved private. But some retort that they can just use other means to communicate that info. But wouldn’t that mean that it doesn’t help keeping taps on the police doing shady shit since they can just use those more secure means of communicating anyway?
They’re getting away with shady shit now, via the unencrypted channels, hiding behind qualified immunity and get away with literal murder.
The question should be how successful is it holding the police accountable based solely on their radio communications. I’d imagine the answer is “not fucking likely”.
i’m all for full transparency regarding all police activity - i’m not for full realtime transparency regarding all police activity.
active shooter scenarios, violent crimes and everything that invites rubbernecking (read: situations where MORE people are a bad idea, which is most police/ambulance business) should probably not attract people; a 24h delay for release would be enough tho.
my inner cynic already tells me - without searching - that noone thought about automatically releasing the info after a delay. :-(
I genuinely like this idea, because it would allow to reach both goals.
The problem I see is that this would probably go down the same as the bodycam idea, with inconvenient recordings vanishing due to “technical issues”.
You’d need an independent third party doing life recording and delayed release. Subjectively, the US don’t have a great track record with these.
They already find any reason not to release body camera footage. You really think they’re gonna release all policy activity after 24 hours?
Yes, this is absolutely suspicious and definitely a sign of police overreach and government’s misplaced priorities.
But.
I do want to point out that, whenever a cop wants to do something shady right now, they don’t do it over the unencrypted radio. It’s not like we’re giving them a new way to be malfeasant.
Right now, they just use their cell phone.
I’m surprised it was nos encrypted already. I looks like an easy way to know if police is coming your way, and how avoid them.
Regular phone calls and text messaging are still a thing. They don’t need this at all.
So then why do they bother with radios?
Are they switching to use Whatsapp?
Switching?
What is the purpose of encrypting comms?
In prior articles on this, religious nutjobs would listen to police radio and visit the active crime scene and start praying in the middle of the chaos. People and police started getting really sick of their shit during an emergency. Other flavors of morons would also show up to watch shit go down. Sometimes, private information would also get said on the radio such as names or addresses, which could lead to harassment or true crime nuts showing up to private homes.
I kinda get why making channels private for everyone but reporters (for transparency) is happening.
I kinda get it, but at the same time I think it should be our right to monitor police. I’m not sure how to reconcile the personal info part though.
I think it says the idea of allowing media or a delayed stream to the public was talked about but nothing was decided.
To keep criminals from monitoring the police and getting a head start
Lol the police are a response team. The criminals always have a head start.
Imagine an active shooter situation where the shooter was carrying or had access to a police scanner and could listen in on what they knew and their movements. I don’t like this idea because I think cops need more media scrutiny than less. But I do understand why it may be necessary in some scenarios.
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear (or something like that)
They’re not encrypted? What? That’s a gigantic security hole.
Damn, are these guys up on modern tech or living in the 90s?
They should not be encrypted. Police should not be operating under a cloak of secrecy especially in the US.
Theres a case for real time communication having at least some channels with dedicated encryption, just because every criminal and their mother is capable of buying a police scanner. Especially if there's records and transcripts for after the fact review.
The problem is that current police forces simply can't be trusted to use it for above the board means. More than likely it'd be used as a means of subverting law and order, not upholding it.
It’s insane it hasn’t been encrypted ages ago. Bizarre
just the police doing everything they can to make sure that no one ever knows what they’re doing because they’re such great big heroes that we normal people just can’t handle their awesomeness
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The New York police department (NYPD) is facing serious backlash after announcing additional details about its plan to encrypt its radio communications system, which experts warn will limit transparency and accountability.
The entire “upgrade” to a new, encrypted radio system will be completed by December 2024 and cost an estimated $400m, a hefty price tag as several city agencies have been forced to swallow major budget cuts.
Maisel said that during Hurricane Sandy in 2012, when more than 200 people died, he was able to provide public safety updates on social media by listening to the police radio.
The encryption plans also have support from Mayor Eric Adams, who said during a July press conference that “bad guys” are listening to the police radios, the New York Times reported.
Cahn added that police have been unable to provide “concrete examples” of criminals abusing the radio system, especially to justify citywide encryption.
“I really do think that we have a fundamental rule-of-law issue under Eric Adams, where the NYPD continues to be enabled to lawlessly pursue this surveillance agenda without abiding by the protections that already exist under law,” Cahn said.
The original article contains 918 words, the summary contains 190 words. Saved 79%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Capitalism is devolving into an almost worldwide police state.
What good is power without control?
airbreather@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Why are they encrypting their communications? Do they have something to hide?
If they’ve got nothing to hide, then they’ve got nothing to fear.
Or so I’ve heard, anyway, right?
rockSlayer@lemmy.world 10 months ago
They’re public employees. Their privacy is non-existent while on duty. There is actually no reason for police radios to be encrypted. The only reason police feel even a modium of responsibility to the public is because they are able to be constantly watched by citizens, and their unencrypted comms is an important part of that.
gian@lemmy.grys.it 10 months ago
True, but your privacy exists even in this case.
Actually I can think of a couple of reasons.
One is that this way the parents of a violent crime or lethal incident victim can be informed about the condition before the press publish the news. Last year we had some cases here in Italy where the parents of people who passed away for some incident/crime discover it from the press even before the authority had time to inform them.
True, in this case is the press that is in the wrong, but they could do it because they had access to the communications.
Another is that maybe it is not a good idea to let criminals know what the police are doing to catch them.
BUT I understand your point given the news about US police I read around.
What I think about it is that if you think that all the US police officers are bad then I agree that the not having access to the radio communications can be a problem. The solution however is not to keep the communications open but to fix the US police.
otter@lemmy.ca 10 months ago
I don’t quite get these comments, I think our emergency services went encrypted a while back in Vancouver Canada and I’m surprised NY wasn’t already encrypted?
Keep the communications encrypted for the privacy and safety of people involved, and keep records for a set amount of time. Anyone with access to the live feed can access the backups during that time, and report issues as needed
doppelgangmember@lemmy.world 10 months ago
I’ll put it simple.
American cops are not equivalent to Canadian cops. US cops use tax payer money to pay lawsuits but are allowed a special police union as well. No other public servants get a union to do their bidding while tax payers foot the bill.
Open the channels. What’s there to hide. In emergency events, yes it could be an issue. But people also need to know where serious events might be occurring in their areas.
AdamEatsAss@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Historically in the USA many police agencies have tried to cover-up and hide evidence of wrongdoing by on duty officers. Some people viewed the open radio policy as a way to monitor the police to make sure they’re not breaking the law themselves. I personally have never tried to listen in to a police radio so it doesn’t bother me much but some people are upset about it.
KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 months ago
Police interactions are public information. If you go to a police station and do a FOIA request, you get all that info anyway. Why would it need to be kept secret before the point it is requested?
Apart from the fact that many departments deny legal FOIA requests and force people to take legal action to get the information they are legally entitled to.
Oh wait. Maybe that’s why they want encryption.
IphtashuFitz@lemmy.world 10 months ago
When I was in the USCG Auxiliary in Boston in the 90’s they used the same VHF radio as all boaters for most comma, but they also had an encrypted radio they could switch to if they needed to discuss anything sensitive. The encrypted radio was crap though and only worked over short distances. But they’d use it when relaying personal details of boats/people they stopped, dealing with drunk boaters, etc.
As time progressed they switched to using mobile phones when they wanted privacy. Cell coverage along the coast proved far better than the proprietary encrypted radio…
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 10 months ago
Where I live it’s partly to protect the privacy of the people involved.
WallEx@feddit.de 10 months ago
Hm everywhere else they’re not all for privacy … Must be a coincidence.
c0mbatbag3l@lemmy.world 10 months ago
They currently aren’t hiding anything on the radio and are still getting away with the shit they’ve been doing since forever, hard to see this as actually being worse when the lack of encryption hasn’t lead to a perfectly transparent police force.
pineapplelover@lemm.ee 10 months ago
It’s not the proper argument but I get your point. Of course they got things to hide. However, public servants like police shouldn’t be allowed to hide anything.
Wahots@pawb.social 10 months ago
Copy/pasting from another comment, but it’s assholes who ruin it for everyone
In prior articles on this, religious nutjobs would listen to police radio and visit the active crime scene and start praying in the middle of the chaos. Like, every crime scene. People and police started getting really sick of their shit during an emergency. Other flavors of morons would also show up to watch shit go down. Sometimes, private information would also get said on the radio such as names or addresses, which could lead to harassment or true crime nuts showing up to private homes.
I kinda get why making channels private for everyone but reporters (for transparency) is happening.