And if so, would they get more prison time / a larger fine?
Simple answer is no. You have a constitutional right to say not guilty because it’s innocent until proven guilty.
If someone pleads not guilty in court and is then found guilty of the crime anyway, does perjury get added to the list of crimes as well?
Submitted 10 months ago by StitchIsABitch@lemmy.world to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world
Comments
andrewta@lemmy.world 10 months ago
runner_g@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 months ago
In the US. Your milage may vary in other countries.
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 10 months ago
It will vary in the US, too.
helpImTrappedOnline@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Remember this only applies in court. On the streets, it’s guilty until shot.
rtxn@lemmy.world 10 months ago
A plea is not a testimony, and the defendant is not under oath at that point, so a not guilty plea is not seen as perjury. However, the defendant rejects any deals by pleading not guilty, so it might result in a more severe sentence.
Nougat@kbin.social 10 months ago
However, the defendant rejects any deals by pleading not guilty, so it might result in a more severe sentence.
A bit tangential, but: In any criminal case (goes for civil, too, but with different terminology), the accused should always plead "not guilty" at arraignment. You can change your not guilty plea to guilty later on, if the prosecution offers a plea deal, or if some other set of circumstances make that plea your best choice. If and when you plead guilty, that's it, all over, move on to sentencing.
Further down this rabbit trail, if you arrange it with the prosecution, you can plead "no contest," which is a guilty plea that cannot be used against you in a later civil case. The plea itself does not make you civilly liable. In 47 states (exceptions: Indiana, New Jersey, and Michigan), you can submit an Alford plea. This plea is "I still proclaim innocence, but I agree that the State case is strong enough to convict me, and I do not have a sufficient defense." Such a plea is allowed when the plea deal offers an escape from a more severe sentence, as in life in prison vs. capital punishment, making the plea "in the best interest" of the accused.
vzq@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 months ago
This plea is “I still proclaim innocence, but I agree that the State case is strong enough to convict me, and I do not have a sufficient defense.” Such a plea is allowed when the plea deal offers an escape from a more severe sentence, as in life in prison vs. capital punishment, making the plea “in the best interest” of the accused.
This sounds a lot like a “the state violated my right to a fair trial but I have no recourse” plea.
solidgrue@lemmy.world 10 months ago
In the US and many other Western nations, the law operates on the presumption that the accused is innocent until proven guilty¹. To enter a plea as a defendant is to formally acknowledge charges filed in a court of law. A guilty plea simply indicates the defendant will not contest the charges, and the trial proceeds more or less directly to final adjudication and sentencing. Sometimes this is done as part of a plea deal where the prosecution and defense agree to a set of lesser charges, with reduced reduced jail times and/or larger fines. The defendant may bit even have committed the of fences charged, but agrees to them to lesser charges to avoid time, expense or reputational harm of a lengthy trial.
A plea of not guilty simply indicates the defendant intends to challenge some or all of the charges, and is asserting their right to the presumption of innocence while the defense team reviews prosecutor’s inculpatory evidence, prepares counterarguments and gathers exculpatory evidence.
The accused is presumed to be innocent unless and until a guilty verdict is reached on the basis of the evidence presented at trial. Additional charges of perjury would only apply where evidence is enters in bad faith, or if the defendant were to make false statements under oath.
- In theory. In practice, we all know people get railroaded for any number of reasons, but that’s beside the point.
TheGreenGolem@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 months ago
In Hungary, no. Because you only commit perjury if you are under oath on the stand as a witness. You are not under oath simply defending yourself. As my lawyer said to me once: you can say or lie literally anything you just want.
schnurrito@discuss.tchncs.de 10 months ago
This is common in European countries, but in the US and other common law countries, defendants who choose to testify are under oath like any other witness.
TheGreenGolem@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 months ago
If you testify. But you can always say no to that, do I know it right?
TheOneCurly@lemmy.theonecurly.page 10 months ago
Same process in the United States
NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 10 months ago
This seems a very regional question.
Euphorazine@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Another thing to consider is just because someone says something that is not true based on reality, doesn’t mean they lied. People’s memories are terrible and easily manipulated.
God_Is_Love@reddthat.com 10 months ago
I love this question.
Also it makes me so angry when serial killers still try to deny their murders years after the fact. The only thing worse than a killer is a lying killer.
EveryMuffinIsNowEncrypted@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 months ago
Ah, yes, but what about a lying killer who also talks with their mouth full?
Truly diabolical.
Kolanaki@yiffit.net 10 months ago
speaking with a mouthful of Mike: “What? No. I didn’t kill and then eat Mike.”
AnneBonny@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 months ago
No.
LastYearsPumpkin@feddit.ch 10 months ago
No, that would be an awful thing to do. You have to allow people to zealously defend themselves from any accusation. Also, in the US, the fifth amendment protects the citizens from being forced to testify against themselves. So punishing someone for pleading not guilty would directly violate the 5th amendment.
Fisk400@feddit.nu 10 months ago
If we assume US centrism here since you didn’t specify country then practically you do get punished for pleasing not guilty. Not because it’s illegal to lie but because if you plead guilty you usually get a shorter sentence.
Haphazard9479@lemm.ee 10 months ago
No
Anyolduser@lemmynsfw.com 10 months ago
Think of a guilty/not guilty plea as the defense declaring their stance rather than literally saying “I did this” or “I did not do this”. After all there are circumstances in which a person absolutely did the thing they’re accused of but are not actually guilty (self defense) or extenuating circumstances need to be considered (insanity plea).
Perjury requires that a person lied under oath in a specific, provable way. That’s why defense attorneys will sometimes have their client not take the stand or assert their fifth amendment rights in response to certain questions. Making the prosecution prove that the defendant did a thing is fine. Saying “I didn’t do thing X at all” and then having evidence being presented that you did is no bueno.
TL;DR: A not guilty plea basically says “prove it”. Perjury is lying about specifics and it can later be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that you lied about those details.
dgmib@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Exactly.
Your choice is “Guilty” or “Not Guilty” not “Guilty” or “Innocent”.
(And for the pedantic out there yes, there are more things you can plead than just guilty or not guilty)
“Not guilty” doesn’t mean innocent, it just means you take the stance that prosecutors are unable to prove their version of events beyond reasonable doubt.
NoneYa@lemm.ee 10 months ago
Besides “no contest”, what other pleas are there?
ook_the_librarian@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Plus prosecutors don’t want to hold another trial (because that is what is required) if they already proved what they wanted to.
They will (likely) only charge perjury if you fuck up a third party’s trial or if your lies are provable and got you off the hook otherwise.