Submitted 1 year ago by Amilo159@lemmy.world to youshouldknow@lemmy.world
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b003e4b7-cd1b-4b7f-a378-4089e5c0262d.jpeg
Equality should be in protection of rights. People are not equal, and never will be. They should have equal rights, though.
Steve Vai is a better guitarist than I am. He shouldn’t have his fingers broken so that we both have equal ability to play the guitar.
Trying to make people equal in every way is evil. It only brings the best in every field down to the level of the worst, since there’s no way to bring everyone up to the level of the best in every field.
That’s not the point of equity. The point is to compensate for disadvantages people couldn’t prevent and can’t fix on their own. Stairs are equal. They work the same way for everyone. But someone in a wheelchair can’t climb stairs.
In practice that’s equity programs work by hurtingsomeone. Some California schools cut advanced math classes because they weren’t diverse enough, or it was contributing to an educational gap, or some bullshit. Equity requires adding burden to someone, it may be in an attempt at fairness, but that doesn’t make it right.
But you can reframe it. People don’t have equal mobility but everyone has an equal right to access a place, so you have stairs and ramps. You can’t make everything a ramp or stair to create equality.
That’s not how equity works in practice. It doesn’t examine anyone’s actual capabilities or disadvantages. They bucket large groups of people into categories they deem worthy to receive resources, despite their actual need. Every person has their individual story, challenges, and priveleges yet equity assumes otherwise, that you deserve compensation based on the group you were assigned to, not what you actually need.
Nobody is advocating for breaking fingers. Following the example set by the image, if someone were to have, for example, issues with their hands, then they should be provided tools to help them play the guitar. Do you think someone with a disability shouldn’t be allowed to do things even though tools to let them do those things exist? Keeping up such barriers is how we miss out on amazing talents hampered by obstacles that could be overcome provided adequate access.
I think what he was saying, but slightly missed, was, if both people needed guitar classes, we should not give the guy with the hand issues the only available seat.
Really though, if we just spend a bit more on education, there could be seats for everyone! So maybe the last picture could be fertilizing the tree to make it bigger or something.
There is no taking away. Someone will have access to guitars that wouldn’t otherwise. Someone somewhere let a great player hear a guitar, see how it’s played, maybe even gave them their first guitar. it’s about giving not taking away.
I think your problem is that you think that something will be taken away. Try to think in terms of the giving. Steve is not going to have anything taken away. Someone will have access to guitars that wouldn’t otherwise. Steve will be fine.
What if resources are limited? There is only one guitar but 3 people want one.
You entirely missed the point of this picture.
This picture isn’t about breaking Steve’s fingers so you can both play shitty guitar. It’s about making sure you can both access a guitar and lessons to learn.
The equality picture would be shoving a guitar in each of your hands and a coupon for lessons, while failing to address that you live 2 hours away from the teacher while he lives next door.
It’s about making sure you can both access a guitar and lessons to learn.
We are already trying to do that. It’s called equality. Also known as equality of opportunity, where everyone has access to acquire a guitar and guitar lessons. How does “justice” augment this?
The picture misses the millions of people who are too poor to afford a ladder and don’t belong to one of the groups targeted by the equity crowd.
Why are you arguing against something literally no one said? How is this graphic trying to ‘make everyone equal in every way’? How is the person on the left of the graphic disadvantaged in any way? (That last one answers your idiotic ‘breaking fingers’ point)
I posted this to a comment further down, but thought I should post it up here:
Let me explain this to you. At birth there are situations that give people advantages that have nothing to do with ability. These advantages are systemic, where certain people will have better access to opportunity (apples) than others. The goal should be that the opportunities are equal so no one has a head start. The best apple picker will pick more apples instead of the person born with an orchard and apple picking machinery who very well may be a shit apple picker.
For your example, we’d end up with the best musicians becoming popular, not the ones where their parent could afford to give them private lessons since childhood and had industry connections to make them big where they wouldn’t otherwise.
It’s not about equality of outcomes, it’s about equality of opportunity. No one should start a race with a head start because then you don’t know who the best runner is. Everyone should start equally and everyone should have equal access to the same shoes, equipment, and practice opportunity, otherwise we can’t see who’s actually best without an advantage.
“Hmmm, he’s in a wheelchair so we’ll make things equal by chopping off your legs.”
You make it seem like correcting the tree in the last panel hurts the advantaged girl on the left. It does not.
I like the boxes and fence one more, this just feels super-contrived
But that one always brings out the smug responses about how they shouldn’t be watching the game for free, totally (and purposefully) missing the point
The girl could literally just walk to the other side of the tree, there’s no actual barrier. This one is super ham-fisted because it can spark the wrong side of the debate.
it can spark the wrong side of the debate.
any discussion of the topic would though, because those who oppose the basic idea of equality, let alone equity or justice, know only how to derail and/or project, they are not interested in having a sincere discussion, because they whole heartedly believe that some people are worth less than others, and they will justify that in whatever way makes sense to them because in their mind, they're all that matters.
True justice would be them watering the tree or something. That dude has been giving to these little shits the whole time. Let it be The Getting Tree for once.
My favorite is the meme edit where they just chop off everyone’s legs so that they end up at the same height below the fence.
Fatality!
I like owning a home because I finally got some equality.
Equality is letting anyone gather apples on any side of the tree.
Yet sometimes you can’t choose where you come from or where you stand. Even if you let people stand where they want, some have larger hands or are taller and stronger so can gather more apples.
I don’t see a fence…
Maybe the real point of the comic is that the girl on the right is really stupid, so we should tilt the tree instead of having her lazy ass move the ladder.
Capitalism: hire an apple picking expert to pick the apples and sell them at exorbitant prices because there is a monopoly on apples.
Communism: send the apple picking expert to work in the steel factory and get a random university professor to pick them instead
No mate, communism is having state managed Apple pickers that pick apples and give them to manager. Management keeps 40% apples for themselves and then divide rest between the whole town, so that everyone in town gets one tiny piece of apple, whether they like apples or not.
Ew
Feudalism: A lord owns the land and the trees growing in it. He has a bunch of peasants who will pick the apples for him. The lord gets all the apples and the peasants are allowed to live on his lands another day. Later that night, they go work on their own farms that hopefully give them enough food to keep going. In the long term they’ll probably starve to death or get kicked out of the house they themselves built. I guess living as s Hunter-gatherer in the forest isn’t that bad compared to the other alternatives.
return to monke
Communism: send the apple picking expert to work in the steel factory and get a random university professor to pick them instead
Why? He’s an expert in that, if we don’t have steel mill experts we can train willing participants. Experts should always flow to their field of expertise
The steel mill experts were purged for saying that sending literally everyone to work on smelting steel is unsustainable.
The Justice pic: a man yells at the kids stealing apples from his garden, while the kids are running away, loosing all the apples.
We could also just shoot the kulak on the left and take back the apples she stole from the people’s tree
Ah yes, the communist solution.
The revolutionary solution, not necessarily communist. Like Boston tea party and what followed
How is giving college scholarships or preferential admissions to one and only one specific group anything but inequality?
You’re completley correct. We should balance the system so that admissions allow more people of color and first-in-family admissions, instead of preferencing legacies so much
Its the equity stage. Certain socioeconomic groups have fewer educational opportunities earlier in life. We should really move on to justice and fix that. But first, we need equity to help people now and make up for that.
That’s horseshit. Some poor person living right next door to some other poor person has access to X scholarship but the neighbor doesn’t. They went to the same schools growing up. Their parents make comparable money, but magically only one of them could get a free ride scholarship or gets easier access to school.
We have need based programs to address people who need help. Why not bolster to those? Why focus on shifting resources/programs away from the poor to people who objectively don’t need it as much? We know how much people need, we can measure income.
Doesn’t the first panel also have equal tools and assistance?
No. The system leaning in favor of one group is very much a type of assistance.
It represents unintentional assistance though, not a bias that exists on purpose. Ex: old building entrance is higher than sidewalk, there’s stairs to go up, it wasn’t the intention to cut access to the disabled, it’s a consequence of the default choice.
Wouldn’t then in the second panel still not be equal assistance?
The kid can literally walk 3 meters to the other side doe
No since the tree is leaning to one side, so more apples will fall that way.
What stops the other person from choosing a different spot…
I didn’t think the tree was either a tool or assistance.
Especially since it is still the same in the second panel where tools or assistance are supposed to be equal.
But I am not good at those things. I just don’t seem to get it.
Only if you consider no tools or assistance to qualify as "having tools or assistance". So no, because while you're correct that 0 == 0, you need values of greater than 0 to have something.
I remember this type of post being 90% of r/coolguides
unfortunately the apple tree is the proletariat
This is a helpful explanation. The distinction between these terms is not so obvious and people believe they know the meanings without comprehending them.
I appreciate the image, but “justice” as it’s described from the image, isn’t what people want progressively.
I used to agree with the picture, everyone should be tested fairly.
Expectations are a bit different though. Execution of what I’ve seen the public want is the Equality picture, but parties switch ladders.
Modern equality isn’t about fairness, it’s about your turn to benefit from the unfairness that’s always inherent in the system. We don’t want to change the system as much as we want our turn.
Life is never fair. The only things that change are perspectives and volume.
Life is and will always be unfair
What a great way to justify never improving things.
It’s not so much NEVER improving things so much as not letting the quest for perfection get in the way of steps in the right direction.
If a fictional city went from a mediocre tuition based college to a fantastic one that was free to students that live in the city, previous students might wish their schooling was free when they were there. It isn’t fair. But it’s also a big improvement for the future and worth doing.
Didn’t say that
So what? This is not about creating an absolutely fair world, it’s about improving heavily unfair systems.
So let’s make it less so?
Key takeaway: Always blame the system
Based on the images, Equity is better than Justice? Why should we alter the tree just to the benefactors liking? What about the tree?
What if one person is more skilled at apple picking or the other just wants to stand on the ground
This is one of my least favorite Rush songs…
Hey, please edit your post to follow rule 1 and rule 2. Thank you (:
Equality of outcomes is commie speech
anarcho primitavism: climb tree oo oo aa aa
Why do we need a different word for equal access to resources? There are different types of equalities, equity in my mind is the difference between what’s owned minus what’s owed.
lmao
Hahaha the old “they are all wrong give me stuff for free”
Justice is Occupational health and safety inspection telling them they are not allowed to use such leaders and especially not unsupervised.
smeg@feddit.uk 1 year ago
Every time I see this quaint but misleading image reposted it’s necessary to make the same comment: the words attached to each image are do not exclusively represent those images. “Equality” could apply to all but the first; nobody uses “equity” this way; and most people use “justice” to refer to criminal justice and punishment.
crazycanadianloon@startrek.website 1 year ago
It’s an infographic for children…? I think it’s meant to be simple.
I’m sure 18+ people should already have a more nuanced view of what those words mean. And if they don’t I’m sure there are other materials they can peruse to help them understand.
phillaholic@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Apparently not simply enough for people to understand it’s point here.
uniqueid198x@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
How would you label the different concepts?
oce@jlai.lu 1 year ago
I wonder if it was written by a non native speaker or a non American because the literal translation in French sounds right.