Those who are hosting on bare metal: What is stopping you from using Containers or VM's? What are you self hosting?

Comments

• CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  To me, docker is an abstraction layer I don’t need. VMs are good enough, and proxmox does a good job with LXCs so far.

  Why would I spin up a VM and virtual network within that vm and then a container when I can just spin up a VM?

  I’ve not spent time learning Docker or k8s; it seems very much a tool designed for a scale that most companies don’t operate at let alone my home lab.

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• sj_zero ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I'm using proxmox now with lots of lxc containers. Prior to that, I used bare metal.

  VMs were never really an option for me because the overhead is too high for the low power machines I use -- my entire empire of dirt doesn't have any fans, it's all fanless PCs. More reliable, less noise, less energy, but less power to throw at things.

  Stuff like docker I didn't like because it never really felt like I was in control of my own system. I was downloading a thing someone else made and it really wasn't intended for tinkering or anything. You aren't supposed to build from source in docker as far as I can tell.

  The nice thing about proxmox's lxc implementation is I can hop in and change things or fix things as I desire. It's all very intuitive, and I can still separate things out and run them where I want to, and not have to worry about keeping 15 different services running on the same version of whatever common services are required.

  • boonhet@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Actually docker is excellent for building from source. Some projects only come with instructions for building in Docker because it’s easier to make sure you have tested versions of tools.

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• erock@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Here’s my homelab journey: bower.sh/homelab

  Basically, containers and GPU is annoying to deal with, GPU pass through to a VM is even more annoying. Most modern hobbyist GPUs also do not support splitting your GPU. At the end of the day, it’s a bunch of tinkering which is valuable if that’s your goal. I learned what I wanted, now I’m back to arch running everything with systemd and quadlet

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• OnfireNFS@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  This reminds me of a question I saw a couple years ago. It was basically why would you stick with bare metal over running Proxmox with a single VM.

  It kinda stuck with me and since then I’ve reimaged some of my bare metal servers with exactly that. It just makes backup and restore/snapshots so much easier. It’s also really convenient to have a web interface to manage the computer

  Probably doesn’t work for everyone but it works for me

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• DarkMetatron@feddit.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  My servers and NAS were created long before Docker was a thing, and as I am running them on a rolling release distribution there never was a reason to change anything. It works perfectly fine the way it is, and it will most likely run perfectly fine the next 10+ years too.

  Well I am planning, when I find the time to research a good successor, to replace my aging HPE ProLiant MicroServer Gen8 that I use as Homeserver/NAS. Maybe I will then setup everything clean and migrate the services to docker/podman/whatever is fancy then. But most likely I will only transfer all the disks and keep the old system running on newer hardware. Life is short…

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• ieGod@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You sure you mean bare metal here? Bare metal means no OS.

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• nuggie_ss@lemmings.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Warms me heart to see people in this thread thinking for themselves and not doing something just because other people are.

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• ZiemekZ@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I consider them unnecessary layers of abstraction. Why do I need to fiddle with Docker Compose to install Immich, Vaultwarden etc.? Wouldn’t it be simpler if I could just run sudo apt install immich vaultwarden, just like I can do sudo apt install qbittorrent-nox today? I don’t think there’s anything that prohibits them from running on the same bare metal, actually I think they’d both run as well as in Docker (if not better because of lack of overhead)!

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  • boonhet@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Both your examples actually include their own bloat to accomplish the same thing that Docker would. They both bundle the libraries they depend on as part of the build

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    • communism@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Idk about Immich but Vaultwarden is just a Cargo project no? Cargo statically links crates by default but I think can be configured to do dynamic linking too. The Rust ecosystem seems to favour static linking in general just by convention.

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    • Mubelotix@jlai.lu ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      It’s not just libraries in a docker

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• kossa@feddit.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Well, that is how I started out. Docker was not around yet (or not mainstream enough, maybe). So it is basically a legacy thing.

  My main machine is a Frankenstein monster by now, so I am gradually moving. But since the days when I started out, time has become a scarce resource, so the process is painfully slow.

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• Smokeydope@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Im a hobbiest who just learned how to self host my website over the summer. I didn’t know anything so I went with what I knew which is a fresh install of linux and installing from the package manager. As im getting more serious im starting to take another look at docker. Unforunately my OS package manager only has old outdated versions of docker I may need to reinstall with like ubuntu/debian LTS server something with more cutting edge software in repo. I don’t care much for building from scratch and navigating dependency roulette.

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  • kiol@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    What OS are you using?

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    • Smokeydope@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Linux Mint 22

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• billwashere@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Ok I’m arguing for containers/VMs and granted I do this for a living… I’m a systems architect so I build VMs and containers pretty much all the time time at work… but having just one sorta beefy box at home that I can run lots of different things is the way to go. Plus I like to tinker with things so when I screw something up, I can get back to a known state so much easier.

  Just having all this things sandboxed makes it SO much easier.

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• sem@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  For me the learning curve of learning containers does not match the value proposition of what benefits they’re supposed to provide.

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  • billwashere@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I really thought the same thing. But it truly is super easy. At least just the containers like docker. Not kubernetes, that shit is hard to wrap your head around.

    Plus if you screw up one service and mess everything up, you don’t have to rebuild your whole machine.

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    • dogs0n@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      100% agree, my server has pretty much nothing except docker installed on it and every service I run is always in containers.

      Setting up a new service is mostly 0% risk and apps can’t bog down my main file system with random log files, configs, etc that feel impossible to completely remove.

      I also know that if for any reason my server were to explode, all I would have to do is pull my compose files from the cloud and docker compose up everything and I am exactly where I left off at my last backup point.

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• pineapplelover@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  All I have is Minecraft and a discord bot so I don’t think it justifies vms

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• bhamlin@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It depends on the service and the desired level of it stack.

  I generally will run services directly on things like a raspberry pi because VMs and containers offer added complexity that isn’t really suitable for the task.

  At work, I run services in docker in VMs because the benefits far outweigh the complexity.

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• Evotech@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It’s just another system to maintain, another link in the chain that can fail.

  I run all my services on my personal gaming pc.

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• SailorFuzz@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Mainly that I don’t understand how to use containers… or VMs that well… I have and old MyCloud NAS and little pucky PC that I wanted to run simple QoL services on… HomeAssistant, JellyFin etc…

  I got Proxmox installed on it, I can access it… I don’t know what the fuck I’m doing… There was a website that allowed you to just run scripts on shell to install a lot of things… but now none of those work becuase it says my version of Proxmox is wrong (when it’s not?)… so those don’t work…

  And at least VMs are easy(ish) to understand. Fake computer with OS… easy. I’ve built PCs before, I get it… Containers just never want to work, or I don’t understand wtf to do to make them work.

  I wanted to run a Zulip or Rocket.chat for internal messaging around the house (wife and I both work at home, kid does home/virtualschool)… wanted to use a container because a service that simple doesn’t feel like it needs a whole VM… but it won’t work…

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  • ChapulinColorado@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I would give docker compose a try instead. I found Proxmox to be too much, when a simple yaml file (that can be checked into a repo) can do the job.

    Pay attention to when people say things can be improved (secrets/passwords, rootless/podman, backups), etc. And come back to them later.

    Just don’t expose things to the internet until you understand the risks and don’t check in secrets to a public git repo and go from there. It is a lot more manageable and feels like a hobby vs feeling like I’m still at work trying to get high availability, concurrency and all this other stuff that does not matter for a home setup.

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    • lka1988@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I would give docker compose a try instead. I found Proxmox to be too much, when a simple yaml file (that can be checked into a repo) can do the job.

      Proxmox and Docker serve two completely different purposes.

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• yessikg@fedia.io ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It's so simple that it takes so much less time, one day I may move to Podman but I need to have the time to learn. I host Jellyfin

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• HiTekRedNek@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  In my own experience, certain things should always be on their own dedicated machines.

  My primary router/firewall is on bare metal for this very reason.

  I do not want to worry about my home network being completely unusable by the rest of my family because I decided to tweak something on the server.

  I could quite easily run OpnSense in a VM, and I do that, too. I run proxmox, and have OpnSense installed and configured to at least provide connectivity for most devices. (Long story short: I have several subnets in my home network, but my VM OpnSense setup does not, as I only had one extra interface on that equipment, so only devices on the primary network would work)

  And tbh, that only exists because I did have a router die, and installed OpnSense into my proxmox server temporarily while awaiting new-to-me equipment.

  I didn’t see a point in removing it. So it’s there, just not automatically started.

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  • AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Same here. In particular I like small cheap hardware to act as appliances, and have several raspberry pi

    My example is home assistant. Deploying on its own hardware means an officially supported management layer, which makes my life easier. It is actually running containers but i don’t have to deal with that

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    • Damage@feddit.it ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      My example is home assistant. Deploying on its own hardware means an officially supported management layer, which makes my life easier.

      If you’re talking about backups and updates for addons and core, that works on VMs as well.

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• zod000@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Why would I want add overheard and complexity to my system when I don’t need to? I can totally see legitimate use bases for docker, and work for purposes I use VMs constantly. I just don’t see a benefit to doing so at home.

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  • boonhet@sopuli.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Main benefit of Docker for home is Docker compose IMO. Makes it so easy to reuse your configuration

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    • cichy1173@szmer.info ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Then check IaC, for example with Terraform or Ansible

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• medem@lemmy.wtf ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The fact that I bought all my machines used (and mostly on sale), and that not one of them is general purpose, id est, I bought each piece of hardware with a (more or less) concrete idea of what would be its use case. For example, my machine acting as a file server is way bigger and faster than my desktop, and I have a 20-year-old machine with very modest specs whose only purpose is being a dumb client for all the bigger servers. I develop programs in one machine and surf the internet and watch videos on the other. I have no use case for VMs besides the Logical Domains I setup in one of my SPARC hosts.

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• Routhinator@startrek.website ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’m running Kube on baremetal.

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• splendoruranium@infosec.pub ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Curious to know what the experiences are for those who are sticking to bare metal. Would like to better understand what keeps such admins from migrating to containers, Docker, Podman, Virtual Machines, etc. What keeps you on bare metal in 2025?

  If it aint broke, don’t fix it 🤷

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• frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  My file server is also the container/VM host. It does NAS duties while containers/VMs do the other services.

  OPNsense is its own box because I prefer to separate it for security reasons.

  Pihole is on its own RPi because that was easier to setup. I might move that functionality to the AdGuard plugin on OPNsense.

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  • HiTekRedNek@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    My reasons for keeping OpnSense on bare metal mirror yours. But additionally I don’t want my network to take a crap because my proxmox box goes down.

    I constantly am tweaking that machine…

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• eleitl@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Obviously, you host your own hypervisor on own or rented bare metal.

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• FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Containerisation is all the rage, but in reality it’s not needed at all for all but a tiny number of self hosters. If a native program option exists, it’s generally just easier and more performant to use that.

  Docker and the like shine when you’re frequently deploying and destroying. If you’re doing that with your home server you’re doing it very wrong.

  I like docker, I use it on my server, but I am more and more switching back to native apps. There’s just zero advantage to running most things in docker.

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  • donalonzo@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Containers are as performant as a native program because they are native programs.

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    • FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Nope. If you use docker containers on windows or mac, they’re running using an abstraction layer. Docker is the native app, but what’s running inside them isn’t. At best they are nearly identical in performance with negligible hit to performance, but as soon as you use things like port forwarding the performance takes a hit.

      stackoverflow.com/…/what-is-the-runtime-performan…

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• hperrin@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  There’s one thing I’m hosting on bare metal, a WebDAV server. I’m running it on the host because it uses PAM for authentication, and that doesn’t work in a container.

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• pedro@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’ve not cracked docker yet. I don’t get how I backup my containers and their data. I would also need to transfer my Plex database into its container while switching from windows to Linux, I love Linux but haven’t figured out these two things yet

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  • Passerby6497@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    All your docker data can be saved to a mapped local disk, then backup is the same as it ever is. Throw bort or something on it and you’re gold.

    Look into docker compose and volumes to get an idea of where to start.

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  • boiledham@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You would leave your plex config and db files on the disk and then map them into the docker container via the volume parameter (-v parameter if you are running command line and not docker-compose). Same goes for any other docker container where you want to persist data on the drive.

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  • hperrin@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Anything you want to back up (data directories, media directories, db data) you would use a bind mount for to a directory on the host. Then you can back them up just like everything else on the host.

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  • purplemonkeymad@programming.dev ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    An easy option is to add the data folders for the container you are using as a volume mapped to a local folder. Then the container will just put the files there and you can backup the folder. Restore is just put the files back there, then make sure you set the same volume mapping so the container already sees them.

    You can also use the same method to access the db directory for the migration. Typically for databases you want to make sure the container is stopped before doing anything with those files.

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• fubarx@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Have done it both ways. Will never go back to bare metal. Dependency hell forced multiple clean installs down to bootloader.

  The only constant is change.

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• Kurious84@lemmings.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Anything you want dedicated performance on or require fine tuning for a specific performance use cases. Theyre out there.

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• missfrizzle@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  pff, you call using an operating system bare metal? I run my apps as unikernels on a grid of Elbrus chips I bought off a dockworker in Kamchatka.

  and even that’s overkill. I prefer synthesizing my web apps into VHDL and running them directly on FPGAs.

  until my ASIC shuttle arrives from Taipei, naturally, then I bond them directly onto Ethernet sockets.

  /uj not really but that’d be sick as hell.

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  • Tangent5280@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I just imagine what the output of any program would be. Follow me, set yourself free!

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