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Comments

• triing@reddthat.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  If you’re a pro, then you know coaches.

  Coaches who you could engage on friendly terms to say “Hey, can you coach my kid? And if needs be, let him down gently?” - see what they think of his potential, and if they need to be the one to tell him he is unlikely to make it, then it’s going to be easier coming from then than from his own Dad. You get to look like you’re backing him by sending him to “one of the best coaches in the business” and then console him when they deliver the rough news…

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• Jimmycrackcrack@lemmy.ml ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I don’t have kids and I don’t know anything about sports. If you continue reading after those disclosures, I’ll offer a perspective anyway, since you put this out to the internet for comment.

  There isn’t really a way you could have put this to your son that would be taken well, it’s evidently sensitive for him and despite your intentions it’ll feel like a tragic monent. It’s just hard news. Whether it’s right to break that to him, well I’m not sure but I think maybe you’re putting too much emphasis on this one interaction like it was your one shot and there was a definitive right it wrong way to do it. What will matter most is more likely to be what you do generally moving forward. You may have your doubts about his ability in his chosen path and perhaps they’re well founded but you can still encourage him and be rooting for him whilst gently suggesting having backup options in times when he appears uncertain. If you consistently do all you can to help in whatever way you can with whatever choices he makes, then if they don’t work out and he has to abandon that dream, he’ll at least know you supported him all throughout despite your concern and that should count for a lot. If somehow he ends up unexpectedly rocketing to success in football he’ll also remember you’d been there all along encouraging and assisting. It’s ok to counsel against putting his eggs all in one basket, but just don’t push it, you must respect his choice whatever it ends up being and he there to help pick up the pieces if those choices don’t make him happy.

  Much like with football fans, you support your team by just showing up to every match and cheering on. Perhaps he didn’t like the uncomfortable dose of reality today but so long as you are consistently a positive and helpful force he’ll hopefully come to appreciate what you’ve been trying to do for him.

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• amorpheus@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Regardless of talent kids should always have a backup plan. What if he broke his leg and didn’t get back into shape? Shit happens.

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• orcrist@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You should have known that there was nothing to gain by telling him what you did. Kids that age are smart enough to realize that if they aren’t being selected to the local all-star team, it’s because they’re not an all-star. If they go to football camp and they aren’t one of the best people at the camp, they’ll realize that they’re not very likely to go pro. But you decided to make it your business at a time when you didn’t need to, and that makes you a jerk.

  You said that you’re just being objective and realistic, right, but you decided to tell your son your opinion, and not someone else. If you were actually trying to be objective, you would have told everyone on the team what you thought about their potential. Of course that would be really rude, which is the point.

  What you could have done is what many other people have mentioned in the comments. Something about how there’s no guarantee that anyone can make it pro, or how long they’ll last if they do, because random injuries can end your career, and the median length of a professional footballer isn’t very long anyway, so there’s still the rest of life to live.

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• TempermentalAnomaly@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Did he ask for your opinion?

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• FourWaveforms@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You’re doing him a favor. Even if he was just as good as you, he wouldn’t be guaranteed to have as much luck as you did. Might never be seen by the right people at the right time. He needs a realistic career plan regardless of whether he tries to make it professionally.

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• pineapplelover@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Tell him he can go pro if he wins against some pros

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• agent_nycto@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  When you punish a person for dreaming his dream, don’t expect him to thank our forgive you.

  He’s right, you don’t believe in him, and if he’s not great at football even though he’s living with a pro, that shows me how little you value him. He could be great but what are you doing to help him get there besides crushing his dreams?

  If you want to salvage this relationship at all you need to apologize and do everything you can to support him. Training, encouragement, the works.

  It’s better that he tries to achieve his dream and have to do something else than to have it crushed out of him by his own father.

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  • HelixDab2@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    if he’s not great at football even though he’s living with a pro, that shows me how little you value him.

    Some people simple don’t have the ability to be good at some things, no matter how hard they work at it, no matter who mentors them. Very, very few people have the ability to be a Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart regardless of what kind of mentorship they have.

    Let me give you a concrete example.

    I’ve had a major shoulder surgery after tearing the shit out of my supraspinatus and the labrum. The supraspinatus passes through the acromium process on the scapula. The acromium process has roughly three different shapes, which are largely determined by genetics. A type I acromium process is smooth, and allows the spuraspinatus to pass through easily. Type II and type III acromium processes have pronounced ‘hook’ shapes–type III significantly more so–that make injury to the supraspinatus much more probable. I have a type II acromium process. Had Mary Lou Retton been my mother and coach, and I’d tried to be a gymnast, I would have destroyed both of my shoulders long before I was ever going to be going to nation-level events; the limits of the shape of my scapula would have made success impossible, given that a strong and stable shoulder is required in gymnastics, regardless of sex/gender. I would likewise be unable to be a competitive powerlifter, for much the same reason; working up to a nationally competitive snatch would have also destroyed my shoulders. (And, in point of fact, it was working on push-presses that killed it.)

    People are not a tabula rasa, only needing the proper encouragement to become paragons in a given field.

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    • agent_nycto@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      You are suffering from several fallacies.

      1. “Unless you can be the best, it’s not worth trying”

      Fortunately, the world doesn’t operate this way. There are people who are mediocre, and sometimes poor, at playing football professionally or other professions. Your line of thinking would lead to only one person playing football at a time, the person who is the best at it, and everyone else should give up.

      2. “Meritocracy is real and the only determining factor of success”

      While meritocracy is a nice thought, that the best inevitably rise to the top, it’s not necessarily true. Just as there’s circumstances that keep talent from succeeding, like financial background, biases against people, and luck, those things also can lift up the less talented. There’s many celebrities that aren’t as talented at acting as someone stuck in a small town.

      3. “I trust OP’s assessment”

      As far as you know, op could be wrong. Maybe the kid plays great and OP is too critical, you don’t know. This could be a critical mistake on OP’s end, and making the kid give up doesn’t help regardless.

      4. “hard work doesn’t mean success, innate ability is the only thing that matters”

      If this were true, no one would need to practice anything. You said Mozart succeeded because of his mentoring, but then argue for people having lack of natural talent leading to failure.

      5. “my back story is relevant”

      It was also tempting to throw in the argument of verbosity. But your shoulder injury, or that some people are incapable of physically doing things, isn’t relevant. The kid is physically capable of playing football. It’s a false equivalence.

      6. “the kid will have the same level of ability at 16 forever”

      You presume that this kid will only have the ability he is at, and that even with training, won’t get better. This ties into your belief in natural talent a bit, but it’s still pretty foolish to assume professional football players play at the level they did at 16, so it’s also foolish to assume that 16 is where this kid will peak.

      7. “the kid achieving the dream is the most important thing here”

      This is where you missed the the bigger picture. There’s more on the line than just success at football, there’s a whole relationship at stake, and a kid’s mental and emotional health.

      So that all said, look at it this way. There’s four scenarios that could’ve taken place, with four factors. Kid gets encouraged, let’s shorthand that to E. Kid gets discouraged, D. Kid succeeds at professional football, S. Kid fails at professional football, F.

      ES is obviously the best. Kid gets support, becomes professional football player, everyone’s happy.

      EF is disappointing, but salvageable. The kid gets the attitude of not giving up and at least Dad has his back. Maybe he tries something else after not making the cut, and has a great career at something he’s able to do, but at least he tried. He’s not going to be able to try forever, but he can at least try something new with a solid foundation.

      DS is a tragic hero. Kid gets there but doesn’t have a great relationship with Dad. Success is tainted by bitterness, and every win is to prove Dad wrong. Doesn’t have a great relationship with Dad, and probably has a lasting issue because of it.

      DF is the worst possible outcome, and at this point it’s the most likely. Kid has an even worse issue with Dad, dreams are crushed, and he grows up bitter and resentful. He’s taught to not try for anything he’s interested in, and lives a life of miserable mediocrity.

      It’s my opinion that it’s better for parents to encourage their children in their dreams, because the success rate is probably higher and at the very least they get the support they need to try something different. It’s almost never a great idea to discourage a child because that leads to resentment and lethargy.

      You aren’t saving anyone by telling them to give up. That’s a decision they should make on their own. This is even more true for a child who is still developing who they are and how they see the world.

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  • FourWaveforms@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This is incredibly bad advice

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    • agent_nycto@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      How? You’re saying it’s better to tell your kid their dreams suck and they shouldn’t try? What a great parenting strategy.

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• libra00@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  ‘Objective and realistic’ is just code for not believing in him, though. Were you great at 16? Or were you merely good enough to get signed and thus benefit from decades of training and coaching that improved you? Do you not believe he will also improve? That’s literally what not believing in him means. It’s one thing to manage expectations, to encourage him to have a fallback, etc, and quite another to effectively say ‘You’re shit at this so you should just go get a job’ or whatever.

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• Etterra@discuss.online ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’d tell him that it’s good to pursue his dreams, but that it’s also good to have a plan B. If he wants to do the sportsball in college, he should also come up with another thing or even two to get into. That’s my opinion, anyway.

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• RestrictedAccount@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You have make the call about your opinion of his talent. We can’t know.

  If you are looking to ascribe a pejorative term to your behavior the consider this.

  If you are wrong you may a dumbass, but since you are doing your best to help the kid, you are certainly not a jerk.

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• Professorozone@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Better than lying and feeding him a line of BS that he can be president or an astronaut or something when the likelihood is so low. Tell him he would make a great accountant. Is he good at math. LOL.

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• RaptorBenn@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Being objective and realistic = Not believing in him Why can’t you be objective and realistic about your childs feelings, obviously, even if you are right and he’s no good (which I doubt if you are saying it), you could have just made the statistical argument, “Son, while football is your dream, the chances of being sustained by it are small and you need a reliable way to survive in the world.” Anything other than telling him YOU dont think HE can do it, and if you can’t accept that, then you need to put aside your ego and seek professional expertise.

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• militaryintelligence@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Yes, you’re gatekeeping his dream

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• shaggyb@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Is he good enough to be a coach? Or a trainer? Or work in sports tech? Media?

  Maybe he can find a way to be invoked without being locked in on being a player on the field at the top level. If what he loves is the game, he can be a part of making the game better or safer or reach more people.

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• Coreidan@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I don’t think it needs to be said. He will figure it out on his own that he isn’t good enough to make it.

  He will either find the drive to make the success or determine it isn’t worth it, or that it isn’t obtainable. That is just part of growing up and getting older. It’s a life experience in itself.

  But to put it to bluntly at such a young age just isn’t necessary. It’s kind of dickish if you ask me. Ultimately he’s enjoying himself and having fun. Organically he will get over it and grow up. No need to do it for him and spoil the fun.

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• RowRowRowYourBot@sh.itjust.works ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Years ago I met Bernard King a guy who was capable of shutting down Michael Jordan in college and in the NBA for a bit. King blew out his ACL and had addiction issues. When I asked him if he had advice for a 21 year old kid it was “make sure you get a degree because even if you make it to the big leagues you might not stay and you’ll need that education”. Your advice isnt terribly different.

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• Contramuffin@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Perhaps not necessarily wrong, but people sometimes don’t like hearing the truth. I don’t agree with the other comments that you should support him - to me, that sounds like bad parenting to not at minimum set up a backup plan when things start to fall apart.

  My take on this situation is that you may have to tell him in a more subtle manner. Fortunately, professional athletes are known for being notoriously competitive, where even talented people can lose out on an opportunity simply out of bad luck. This could give you a way to voice your concerns in a way that doesn’t directly imply that he’s not cut out for the job, ie “you still need to be very lucky to go pro. I was very fortunate, but we shouldn’t be counting on luck for your living. You can still try for it, but I really think you should also have some backup options if things don’t work out”

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• ikidd@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Roy Kent here.

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  • libra00@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    He’s here, he’s there, he’s every-fucking-where, Roy Kent!

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• barneypiccolo@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I love music, and was able to earn money as a teenager doing it, instead of flipping burgers or bussing tables, like my friends. But hanging with all those older, professional players taught me that I didn’t have the talent to hang with the pros as an adult. Rather than delude myself, I realized that I loved records (it was the olden days) and steered my career and education toward Music History, with an eye on a career in the record biz. I did that for 30 years, until the record industry imploded around 2000.

  Perhaps rather than break his heart and look unsupportive, teach him to be honest with himself, and then put him up against truly talented players so he can realize that he doesnt have what it takes. At the same time, encourage him to look at other options in the business, like coaching, administration, scouting, PR, announcing, etc. He can still be part of the sport he loves without being on the field.

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• GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  [deleted]

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  • acutfjg@feddit.nl ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Generalized animosity from a parent to their child is the not the same as seeing a niche interest that most likely won’t work out based on facts.

    You’re giving survivorship bias for two completely different situations. He’s not telling his kid he can’t do anything. He’s being very specific, and that specific thing is also already very difficult to obtain for anybody, let alone those with great skills.

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    • libra00@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      And you’re saying the lessons from one thing aren’t directly applicable to the other when they are. It’s like saying no one who was ever physically abused as a child can ever talk about why hitting a child is bad because they’re just giving survivorship bias for two completely different situations. The lack of belief still hurts whether it’s an isolated incident or a pattern, and OP needs to know that.

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  • sem@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I didn’t have this life trajectory, but I have another experience and don’t really agree with this. My parents have always been loving and supporting of me. They saw me majoring in science and encouraged me. Once or twice my dad told me he thought I’d be a good audio engineer, but I never really took him seriously.

    Well I probably wasn’t cut out to be a STEM worker, or at least I haven’t figured it out yet and I’m getting pretty old. Just working dead end jobs and being too anxious to try for better jobs.

    Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if I listened to my dad a little better, or if anyone had been able to tell me while I was struggling in my stem classes, that maybe I was aiming at the wrong thing, and to keep looking…

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    • Fetus@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’m sorry, but the irony of not becoming an audio engineer because you didn’t listen is really something.

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  • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This is a life at stake. Don’t tell this guy to be a pushover to spare a feeling. It’s way WAY worse to fuck a whole life thinking you’ve got a career that your parents know something about when you DONT.

    This is a shitty, entitled take. Some people are good at some things. Some are good at others. Don’t gaslight your kid to think he’s an astronaut and let the world teach a lesson. That makes you a SHIT parent.

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    • GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      [deleted]

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    • lud@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Life at stake?

      Eh no, not knowing that you should have a backup plan if you want to do stuff like football is far from ruining a whole life.

      Let’s say that they figure out that football is a no go at 25 or something ridiculous like that, what happens? Nothing. They can just do something else, they can even study and get some good education if they want. Switching careers isn’t impossible like you make it out to be. Hell, depending on where you live you might even get paid by the government to get a better education.

      Let the kid do football but encourage them to do other stuff too (like getting a good education).

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• RottedMike@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  As a pro, you know better than most that any professional athlete should always have a back up plan. Pursuing academics, degrees, and skilled trades alongside the sport is critical for the very real possibility of a career ending injury.

  Emphasizing that to your son alongside his play is an easy right move to make. At some point, if his skill doesn’t improve, he will naturally stop advancing in ranks. The reality will take care of itself, and as a father, the emphasis you imparted about other professional avenues will bear fruit without having to deflate anyone.

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• jackalope@lemmy.ml ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Is it possible to be a pro footballer without being mega famous? How did a footballer end up on lemmy?

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  • bitchkat@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    They have something like 5 tiers of professional football in the UK. There are a lot of pros and they don’t make a lot of money.

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  • barneypiccolo@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    People like to spew their opinions on the Internet, and celebrities are - shhh, dont tell anyone - are literally people.

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• RBWells@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Was he asking you directly if you thought he could make pro? Then no, I think your honest opinion is the right answer.

  If this was just unsolicited parental advice then yes, jerky thing to say. He will figure it out soon enough, right? 16 is when recruiters start looking and if he doesn’t get attention then he should know, I don’t think it’s the kind of thing you have to point out.

  My kid who was a good - not - great athlete leveraged it for a good high school career and a scholarship to help with college, and an alright college sports career, there’s no reason to squash him down, if he enjoys the sport it can still be good for his life.

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• humanspiral@lemmy.ca ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  16 is not too old to not learn to be much better.

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  • RowRowRowYourBot@sh.itjust.works ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    By 16 you should have an idea if you have a chance at all. I was all state in my sport at 15. I knew by my junior year I wasn’t going to be competing in college because the skills just were not there. Most kids who have a chance to go pro know way before 16.

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  • Trail@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    For professional football, I think it is too late.

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• Monstrosity@lemm.ee ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The kid is growing up in a World on fire. People his age are screwed.

  Let him have fun & do what he wants.

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• roserose56@lemmy.ca ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You are not a jerk IMO! But I believe you should have done it somehow different, like tell him to try other things in case football career does not work out for him, or to always think about another career. and of course what others already said.

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• Mostly_Gristle@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Looking at this with adult eyes, no I don’t think you’re a jerk. It sounds like you’re trying help him see the reality of the situation before it causes him any undue emotional (or financial) suffering. It’s not, however, very hard to imagine how from his point of view he might feel like you’re being jerk, or maybe a bit hypocritical.

  Is there any way you can get him playing with kids who are good enough to go pro? If he can start playing against people who genuinely have the goods, it’s probably not going to take him very long to figure out for himself whether he can keep up or not. And that way you don’t have to set yourself up as the bad guy as much, and you can play a more supportive role and be there to guide him to an alternative path once he gets sick of the other kids running circles around him. At least that’s how it worked for the couple of kids I knew growing up who were good enough at basketball or American football that they really thought they could go pro. It was playing against people who were the real deal that made them realize they didn’t have the shot they thought they did. It was pretty obvious that these other kids had something extra, and were playing on a level my friends felt they were probably never going to reach.

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• treno_rosso@feddit.org ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  “You know i believe in you but i also believe that bad luck can strike anytime. I have seen it myself, one bad tackle and you are done. I have to insist for you to have a back up plan.”

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• SplashJackson@lemmy.ca ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Maybe if he had someone coach him decently while he was growing up

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