Is it better to leave a country, or stay behind to fight for it? And what about the ethics of fleeing instead of staying behind?

Submitted ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com⁩ to ⁨nostupidquestions@lemmy.world⁩

I mean, there are two side of the argument.

Pragmatically, fleeing would save your life.

But ethically, it feels cowardly. (I’m not calling anyone a “coward”, its just how I internally feel about such an act, if I were the one doing it)

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miridius@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
By leaving you are voting with your feet, one could argue it’s one of the most effective ways to fight. Staying means that in many ways you will be continuing to support the broken system

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LovableSidekick@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
There’s no single correct answer, and as with most issues there are a lot more than two sides. You already implied a third one here - fleeing without being a coward. Question: assuming you’re not a low-paid doctor in a free clinic, providing much-needed healthcare to people who can’t afford it… do you feel like a coward for that? Truth is we aren’t all suited to actively and effectively fight the system, any more than we’re all suited to be doctors or lawyers or athletes. You’re allowed to make life decisions without beating yourself up for not being a saint.

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thingAmaBob@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Personally, I think either option is valid. Not everyone is cut out for the fight, and especially if you have children, it makes sense for a parent to do what is best. I wouldn’t blame anyone one bit for leaving. I honestly haven’t created an exit plan this far, so I might just end up staying and fighting.

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KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I’m staying, i’m a white male i’m low on the impact list. But I have citizenship in the UK and I am considering a trip to Scotland to see what the challenge of a relocation entails.

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y0kai@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
If I could leave I’d be gone. I owe this country nothing.

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arotrios@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I have two multi-racial disabled family members I care for. Even if I could leave the country, they couldn’t - very few nations allow the disabled to immigrate.

I’m here till the fight is done.

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Transonicgravity@feddit.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
For me it’s a mix of different factors. Is there a place where I am better equipped to fight for what I believe it? Where I can be more effective in creating the world I want to live in? Maybe even a place from which I can more actively advocate and fight for the future I want for the place I just left?

I come from a family of refugees, immigrants and political prisoners. My dad fled his country with his family in the 70s, my mum’s parents did the same in the 50s. Others didn’t leave their homes, some survived, others did not. Every single one of my 19 cousins can call at least two countries their home.

I just left the US 5 weeks ago. I was a trans immigrant with a disabled, trans wife and an EU passport. Yes, part of me wants to fight the continuous fascist power grab happening right now in the US, which has become my home, but I’d be in a very precarious situation where just keeping myself safe enough to fight another day would occupy a lot of my capacities. Getting myself arrested and (best case) deported, wouldn’t really be helpful. Returning to my country of origin allows me to fight the same trends and politics from a significantly more secure position. It allows me to financially support US organizations I believe in, in ways I couldn’t while living there myself. And it’s not like the same people aren’t trying to achieve the same goals with varying success all across Europe.

But when we moved back here, I also decided that this would be it. This is where I am taking my stand and where I will fight for my future with all means necessary. Be that against internal threats or external ones. Not because this place or it’s people is somehow more important to me based on the coincidence of my birth, but because there is no place where I personally have more resources, better support and a stronger starting position. Moving somewhere else to avoid the conflict would leave me with fewer resources and less ability to stand up for my beliefs.

I don’t think there is anything cowardly about fleeing your country when you’re not safe there. Being an immigrant, let alone a refugee is really fucking hard sometimes. Leaving your home and everything and everyone you’ve ever known behind, especially if you do so without knowing if you’ll ever be able to return, can be incredibly traumatic. Starting over in a new place, even under the best circumstances, is scary, exhausting and often deeply isolating. We all have different priorities, strengths, weaknesses, needs and capacities and only you can decide based on those, what the right move is for you. Don’t let someone who hasn’t risked their life while staying tell you you are a coward for leaving or someone who hasn’t ever left their home tell you you’re stupid for staying.

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nutsack@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
stay. you will feel like shit when things go down and you are on the other side of the world doing nothing. it’s pussy shit.

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- Bazoogle@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  It’s pussy shit, sure, but you only get one life. You don’t get another chance. You may feel like shit for leaving, but you’re alive and not in a prison. Which, if you ask me, I’d rather feel bad than be dead.
  
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  - nutsack@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    The original post did not mention fear of political persecution. I think that’s a different situation.
    
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mrodri89@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
To me, nationality is just a roll of the dice. You shouldn’t have to stay somewhere just because you were born there. You wanna leave? By all means, go have your life’s adventure.

And immigration should be widely supported in terms of higher ethical standards. Countries who make it difficult for people seeking to find a comfortable place to live is more immoral than a person seeking a new home.

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Wilco@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
This is apparently what the US wants. My family is seriously looking into moving to a different country. We don’t want to be stuck in the new modern nazi party country.

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Polderviking@feddit.nl ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
For me this entirely revolves around why why’s and how’s when it comes to how that affects the ethics of it.

With a defense type scenario I’d likely have a hard time looking at myself in the mirror if I just left and essentially allowed my home to be taken.

If we are the aggressor, then no thanks bye.

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hexagonwin@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
You can always help overseas where you’re safer.

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- surewhynotlem@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  How? We can barely have an impact here
  
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biegoditch@lemmy.cafe ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Depends. If you want to draft me, fuck off. If invaders come in my neighborhood, I’ll be in the wood blowing bombs like my ancestors did when the germans came.

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FortyTwo@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
While you are staying, your productivity is fueling the economy, and the taxes you pay go to the government you dislike. If you flee, that’s a big economic difference you’re making over the years. I guess if you fight symbolically but non-pragmatically and get arrested, they have to feed you and house you in a prison which will cost a little extra, but compared to your non-productivity that’s just a small bonus. Fleeing also means you get to proactively contribute to competitors and reward them for being a better place to live, which in a way doubles your economic impact. There’s a reason the Berlin wall was built and North Korea executes 3 generations of the families of defectors. People are valuable, and they can’t afford to lose too many of them.

On the other hand, if your threshold for fleeing is too low, there are no competitors to support, because every country has their issues, and some may be at a risk of the same developments as the country you’re fleeing from, making it a pointless exercise.

So it kind of depends, but at least the cowardice argument seems pointless to me. Pragmatic small-scale effectiveness tends to beat symbolic perfectionism at making an impact.

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splendoruranium@infosec.pub ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Whether to flee or fight isn’t a very useful distinction, I think. It’s a false dichotomy.

Fighting someone or fighting for something in a way that risks your life just isn’t a very smart way to fight. Obviously run when your life is at stake. When you’re safe, fight.

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- Soggy@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Never take any risks to improve the world, that’s how things are gonna get better!
  
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  - splendoruranium@infosec.pub ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    
    Never take any risks to improve the world, that’s how things are gonna get better!
    
    No, I don’t think I’d agree with that.
    
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Psythik@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I always hated the “cowardly” argument.

Who gives a flying fuck what others think? Fuck that egotistical bullshit.

Do what you can to survive. That’s more important than worrying about how brave others think you are.

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- afronaut@slrpnk.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  There is an argument to be made that fleeing anytime fascists threaten your democracy can maybe done once in a lifetime. If you happen to flee the American fascist regime to another country that collapse into fascism soon after, do you flee again? Do you finally stay and fight?
  
  People should make these decisions for themselves and their families.
  
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- meekah@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  
  Who gives a flying fuck what others think? Fuck that egotistical bullshit.
  
  Isn’t egoism kinda the opposite of caring about what others think?
  
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Phantom_Engineer@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I have thought about emigrating after I get my bachelor’s, but I don’t think I will.

My family has been here for generations. Why should I have to leave when the reactionaries are the ones that suck? Besides, where would I go? Ultimately, nowhere can guarantee safety from the rise of authoritarianism and climate change.

Canada and Scandinavia will probably weather climate change alright, but they’ll have instability on their doorstep, especially if mass migration becomes a thing. Iceland? New Zealand? Switzerland? Probably all decent choices, to be honest.

I could also become a mountain man out a remote northern wilderness, living as self-sufficiently as possible while working remotely via satellite internet. Or, I could stay where I am and try and do as much good as possible, whatever that looks like.

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Professorozone@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
RUN! I don’t know why people get so attached to a piece of land, especially when it can cost you your life. They are artificial lines created on the globe. The real question, is where to run.

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- Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Leave Grandma she’s dead weight
  
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  - prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Is that you, Clark?
    
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  - Professorozone@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Well, yeah, this is essentially why I’m not running.
    
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SubArcticTundra@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6tSqGCfoCI (I think some people are using this video in bad faith but the main message still stands)

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SubArcticTundra@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
It’s a paradox – for the individual it’s better to leave, but migration en masse would be unsustainable both for the source country and for the recipient country. You cannot fit the whole of a country like Somalia into a country like Denmark. This is why I personally am an advocate of foreign aid, and that includes political.

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- IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  
  This is why I personally am an advocate of foreign aid
  
  So um… EU, when y’all be funding the American Resistance? 👀
  
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  - xavier666@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    American Resistance? Just give Eggs pls. Thanks
    
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Montreal_Metro@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Eventually you’ll run out of places to run to.

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- ipkpjersi@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  True, but if you die, you won’t be doing much running anymore anyway.
  
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- IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Brb, inventing a parallel universe portal
  
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tiefling@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I’ve spent my whole life fighting for progressivism and my right to exist as a trans immigrant. I’m personally done, cya

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- Biscuit@ani.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I hope you thrive on the other side!
  
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ocean@lemmy.selfhostcat.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I made a similar post and I feel no answers here on lemmy are satisfactory. They’re either you should have left 8 years ago or fight for (what?) it. At the beginning of this term people yelled fascism and I thought that was silly. Now it feels closer to reality but it’s unclear what is just news making it worse than it is or reality.

Leaving certainly is an option but not an easy one, especially depending on your family situation. I’ve considered both and honestly idk. The people who just yell we should have left a while ago are too ready to jump the gun and probably are keyboard activists who are in fact still here.

Idk, just some thoughts. Idk what to do either but it’s scary.

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tate@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I’m just so grateful that so many great scientists fled nazi germany. Also that those who stayed behind (this is controversial and not known for sure) hindered and delayed Germany’s nuclear weapons program.

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OprahsedCreature@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I mean, there are examples of people who defected from Nazi Germany to the Soviet Union (and other places too) before and during the war. Good general rule is that the earlier they did the easier a time they had of it overall.

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L0rdMathias@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Don’t run away unless it makes you stronger because of it. Once something has been gained, never yield it without a purpose or a strategy - even if that ends up being a bad decision it was at least yours to make.

It is a difficult endeavor to gain new ground; it is nigh impossible to fully recover that which has been lost.

After you have ceded all your land and yielded every advantage, where will you seek shelter and from what will you find strength?

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insomniac_lemon@lemmy.cafe ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Generally, I feel like it depends on how viable it seems to fix. Is this the same issue that people marched about 50+ years ago?

Specific elephant in the room, what possible fix within 2-4 decades is there when the right has most of the keys including a stacked supreme court?

Personally, I can’t really fight or leave. I am nowhere close to anything politically relevant… I have no transportation, income, or ID/passport etc. I am a shut-in with untreated health issues. I’m just letting the days go by.

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A_norny_mousse@feddit.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Now you understand what it means to flee your country. It’s never an easy decision.

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Limonene@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
If you’re trans: Start making plans to flee. You don’t have to carry them out right now. But do get a passport, even if it has to have your deadname. Canada or Mexico probably wouldn’t accept a US refugee just for being trans right now, but that will change in the future.

If you’re an immigrant, or even a permanent resident: It’s unsafe in the US right now. I wouldn’t fault you if you left today. However, everyone’s circumstances are different. Maybe you want to stay and support your spouse and kids who are citizens, and you’re willing to risk your life to do it. It depends on the circumstances.

Anyone else: Stay and fight.

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