50,000 cycles
Wow, a lifetime of 137 years at one cycle per day.
Lithium-free sodium batteries exit the lab and enter US production
Submitted 6 months ago by mox@lemmy.sdf.org to technology@lemmy.world
https://newatlas.com/energy/natron-sodium-ion-battery-production-startt/
Comments
credo@lemmy.world 6 months ago
SOB_Van_Owen@lemm.ee 6 months ago
Long-time offgridder here. Would love to have a reasonable alternative to lead-acid or lithium. Opted for lead-acid again on the last battery swap around 5 years ago. Squeezed about 12 years out of the last set -though they were pretty degraded by that time. This bank is depreciating faster, probably because of increased use.
nilloc@discuss.tchncs.de 6 months ago
Led acid batteries seem to be less and less reliable lately. The warranties are shorter and shorter as well, which is the best supporting evidence I have beyond needing batteries more often for the 4-5 vehicles I maintain.
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 6 months ago
For real. It will take up a lot more space than lithium, but if it lasts way longer and should end up being cheaper, it would definitely be the winning choice. Solar array on the roof and a huge outdoor battery in a shed against the house and no more electric bill, ever.
DarkDarkHouse@lemmy.sdf.org 6 months ago
Build your walls out of batteries and tile your roof with solar panels
cmnybo@discuss.tchncs.de 6 months ago
Batteries degrade with age too. It would probably have to be cycled 10 times a day to get that many cycles.
Cort@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I could see that happening if these are used in gas hybrid cars, or ev taxis, or maybe grid scale energy buffering
chiliedogg@lemmy.world 6 months ago
The shitty thing right now is grid connection is required by pretty much any building code, and the utilities are getting wise to solar. They’re moving a lot of the fees from power use to connection and line maintenance. My family was looking at solar, but since 2/3 of their power bill is just to be connected to the grid it wouldn’t save enough to make economic sense.
cm0002@lemmy.world 6 months ago
non-flammable end use
Safe and stable chemistry
Oh neat, finally a non-explody and/or unstable battery lmao
dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Well, only relatively.
In order to work batteries need to have a certain amount of instability built in, on a chemical level. Them electrons have to want to jump from one material to a more reactive one; there is literally no other way. There is no such thing as a truly “safe and stable” battery chemistry. Such a battery would be inert, and not able to hold a charge. Even carbon-zinc batteries are technically flammable. I think these guys are stretching the truth a little for the layman, or possibly for the investor.
Lithium in current lithium-whatever cells is very reactive. Sodium on its own is extremely reactive, even moreso than lithium. Based on the minimal lookup I just did, this company appears to be using an aqueous electrolyte which makes sodium-ion cells a little safer (albeit at the cost of lower energy density, actually) but the notion that a lithium chemistry battery will burn but a sodium chemistry one “won’t” is flat out wrong. Further, shorting a battery pack of either chemistry is not likely to result in a good day.
voracread@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I believe it is still better due to raw material availability?
dharmacurious@slrpnk.net 6 months ago
You who are so wise in the ways of science, can you explain to me if this is safe/will be super dangerous if exposed to water? Doesn’t sodium, like, blow the fuck up when it comes in contact with water?
Zink@programming.dev 6 months ago
There is no such thing as a truly “safe and stable” battery chemistry.
Is it even possible to have energy storage of any kind that is truly safe and stable? Some are better than others, of course.
catloaf@lemm.ee 6 months ago
If you poke a hole in it, is it just as exciting as lithium?
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 6 months ago
the notion that a lithium chemistry battery will burn but a sodium chemistry one “won’t” is flat out wrong
Flinging a brick of sodium into my bathtub to prove you wrong.
roguetrick@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Doesn’t take into account the reactivity difference with the matrix either. Solid state batteries are in a vitrified matrix essentially, and glass don’t burn.
fuckwit_mcbumcrumble@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 months ago
But I like my inextinguishable fires :(
Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 6 months ago
Lead acid has been there for a hundred years, lithium phosphate is another option.
Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Nickle-iron
LordKitsuna@lemmy.world 6 months ago
As usual there is absolutely no mention whatsoever anywhere in any of the articles I can find or from the company themselves about what the fucking price is
Kbobabob@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Why would there be? I didn’t think these were for consumers.
ikidd@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Since they say they’re putting them out from 48V to 800V, 48V is what most inverter systems use, so I imagine they’re targetting that size for “consumers” at the single-house PV system size. If the cycle counts and low temperature charging characteristics come true, they will be popular.
American manufacturers like this like to shoot themselves in the foot by pricing their new and innovative battery technology at the datacenter customer size, find out they have no market, use up all their capital, then sell the tech to a big Chinese company like BYD or CATL. So once they’ve complete this lifecycle, I’d expect a couple more years before they’re readily available to actual consumers. Probably expect to see them then at about LFP prices, like $90/kWh wholesale price.
Snapz@lemmy.world 6 months ago
These aren’t for you to buy directly, they are for manufacturers to negotiate a price and order in bulk from the company to then integrate them into their products or production facilities.
BrightCandle@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Late last year they were talking about $40 for a KWH which compared very favourably to LifePO4 that was more like $130 at the time and Li-ion that was more like $200. However right now on alibaba you can get a 200Ah battery for about $60 and the LifePO4 300Ah are now down in the $50 range which is an incredible drop in the space of 6 months. So in practice they are less dense and more expensive but I think its new technology introduction pricing and at some point it should be about a third cheaper than LifePO4 for the same capacity, all be it a bit bigger and heavier and quite considerably cheaper than Li-ion for the same capacity.
The small 18650 and other small sized cells have started appearing on aliexpress as well so its possible to get those too butt they are a lot more expensive than a basic Li-ion 18650 at the moment for a lot less capacity. I think its mostly the bigger cells that most people interested in Sodium Ion will be wanting (home battery and grid storage solutions and some of the low/mid range cars) more than small cells since typically the smaller stuff you want to maximise capacity even if it costs a bit more and most will want li-ion and ideally the newer nearly solid state li-ion that doubles capacity per KG.
buzz86us@lemmy.world 6 months ago
You also have to remember these are specifically designed to favor charge cycles over capacity… Only for stationary
LordCrom@lemmy.world 6 months ago
The mere fact that we can stop scorching the earth for lithium and cobalt is enough.
Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Now, we’ll scorch it for salt.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
Well, we have nearly an endless supply of salt here on the Internet, should be an easy transition.
schizoidman@lemmy.ml 6 months ago
Sodium batteries are already in electric cars many months ago
DreitonLullaby@lemm.ee 6 months ago
I don’t think the article was trying to imply that they weren’t already in use in electric cars, just that they would be better for them.
jaemo@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
www.amazon.ca/dp/B0CCVPZL78 these have been in my shopping cart for a few months.
IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Nuclear bros hate this one simple trick.
Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 months ago
I love nuclear but this new battery tech has me super excited
It increases the viability of renewable energy sources (especially solar) which makes me hella happy
IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I love nuclear
I’m not trying to be a dick but could you explain why?
Harbinger01173430@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Won’t nuclear techy bros use the nuclear energy bits and put them into the sodium thingies to keep them juiced up?
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Yeah, I’m not sure why this would be an argument against nuclear power. Does the person above think these batteries are self-charging?
tengkuizdihar@programming.dev 6 months ago
Sodium? Like, salt sodium?
antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 months ago
Salt is sodium chloride. Sodium is a metal, and it is right below Lithium on the periodic table (behaves and reacts similarly).
blandfordforever@lemm.ee 6 months ago
No, Sodium like the PlayStation game Sodium.
Allero@lemmy.today 6 months ago
Yes, that very sodium. The one that combines with chlorine to give you table salt.
Super abundant, incredibly cheap, much more environmentally friendly.
Static_Rocket@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Good video going over practical pros and cons currently:
TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I couldn’t find much in the chemistry but this seems exciting.
TonyTonyChopper@mander.xyz 6 months ago
Chemist here. There’s a lot in the chemistry and it is exciting
Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 6 months ago
That is some great news
Spaceballstheusername@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I didn’t see anything about round trip efficiency. I’ve heard that’s a big downside so it might make energy storage a hard sell.
ikidd@lemmy.world 6 months ago
97% RTe from what I’ve heard.
Spaceballstheusername@lemmy.world 6 months ago
That would be awesome, any idea where you heard that, I’ve read other sodium based technologies have ~65%
TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 6 months ago
Only thing I’ve seen that has worried me about them is how they seem to have turned a fire hazard into an explosive hazard in terms of battery safety.
August27th@lemmy.ca 6 months ago
explosive hazard
Can you elaborate on that? I was just reading the data sheet for these batteries, and these are tested with a ballistic penetration test, resulting in no fire.
I’m presuming this concern is from watching videos of elemental sodium reacting with water, which stands to reason, but I’ve not heard of exploding batteries
TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 6 months ago
Just my impression on seeing videos of these tests on videos, which seem to result in the battery exploding violently and essentially escaping any attempt at confinement instead of catching fire. www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1ya_ls1zkA
AdamEatsAss@lemmy.world 6 months ago
No fire could have occured during the penetration test because the resulting explosion removed all oxygen from the surrounding environment. -s
RaoulDook@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Sodium Ion batteries are nonflammable. They are safer than most of what we already use.
TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 6 months ago
Guess reading comprehension is not your forte.
PiratePanPan@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 months ago
Finally, some good fuckin’ news
valid@lemmynsfw.com 6 months ago
Usernameblankface@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Lower power density, higher cycle life, safer. Sounds good for stationary power storage.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
And commuter cars.
Usernameblankface@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Yes, absolutely. For a regular daily commute to a job that allows you to afford 2 vehicles, having one of the two with a shorter range with more charge cycles makes a lot of sense.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Amazing how far we’re progressing in battery technology in such a short amount of time.
And all it took was $100/BBL gas to get people off their asses.
bluewing@lemm.ee 6 months ago
I need long range and I need it at -30F. A round trip to the grocery store or to see a doctor is 100 miles and can be as much as 300 miles. I can’t justify an EV until I can get that kind of range at an affordable price. $40,000US+ ain’t really affordable for most people.
I almost bought a Chevy Bolt, but between not being able to actually find one to see and touch, and the almost good enough range, I just didn’t feel comfortable with such a large purchase.
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 6 months ago
…that’s why the article says it.
sebinspace@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Listen, if he came to that conclusion in a vacuum without reading the article, that’s kind of neat on its own.
Namaste.
T156@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Higher cycle life might also make it good for hybrids, since they cycle their batteries a fair bit.
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 6 months ago
For sure. They would likely use a lower capacity battery due to these being much less energy dense, though. Hybrids have been using bigger batteries and only using around a 30% zone of charge state in order to greatly prolong battery degradation. I’d imagine auto makers would try to keep the batteries around the same size, but start using more like a 60 or 70% zone, though. So they’ll take advantage of that higher cycle life.
You won’t get an automaker to care about making a battery that lasts much beyond 10 years.