Comment on Lutris now being built with Claude AI, developer decides to hide it after backlash

adeoxymus@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

• deadcade@lemmy.deadca.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  It’s still made by the slop machine, the same one that could only be created by stealing every human made artwork that’s ever been published. (And this is not “just one company”, every LLM has this issue.)

  Not only that, the companies building massive datacenters are taking valuable resources from people just trying to live.

  If the developer isn’t able to keep up, they should look for (co-)maintainers. Not turn to the greedy megacorps.

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  • bookmeat@fedinsfw.app ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    A few years ago we were all arguing about how copyright is unfair to society and should be abolished.

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    • wirelesswire@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Sure, but these same companies will drag you to court and rake you over the coals if you infringe on their copyrights.

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      • Deceptichum@quokk.au ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        More reason to destroy copyright.

        Normal people can’t afford to fight the big companies who break theirs anyway. It’s only really a tool for big businesses to use against us.

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    • WalrusDragonOnABike@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Because its used to benefit megacorps in practice. This situation is just more proof of that.

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    • everett@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Copyright is what makes the GPL license enforceable.

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      • p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        The GPL license only exists because copyright fucked over the public contract that it promised to society: Copyrights are temporary and will be given back to public domain. Instead, shitheads like Mark Twain and Disney extended copyright to practically forever.

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      • Luminous5481@anarchist.nexus ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Licenses only matter if you care about copyright. I’d much rather just appropriate whatever I want, whenever I want, for whatever I want. Copyright is capitalist nonsense and I just don’t respect notions of who “owns” what.

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    • iamthetot@piefed.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Who is we? I wasn’t.

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    • Bronzebeard@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Yeah people making that argument were dumb. Copyright needs to be fixed, not abolished.

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  • Ganbat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    If the developer isn’t able to keep up, they should look for (co-)maintainers.

    Same energy as “Just go on Twitter and ask for free voice actors,” a la Vivziepop. People think this kind of shit is super easy, but realistically, it’s nearly impossible to get people to dedicate that kind of effort to something that can never be more than a money sink.

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    • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I was under the impression that FOSS developers do it for the love of the game and not for monetary compensation. They’re literally putting the software out for free even though they don’t need to. They are going to be making this shit regardless.

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      • Ganbat@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        My point was “Help me with my passion project for nothing” is a much harder sell. “Just find some help,” is advice along the lines of “Just get in a plane and fly it.”

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      • tempest@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        That is what they are technically doing but they often don’t always consider the consequences and often react poorly when they realize that an Amazon (it whatever) comes along and contributes nothing and monetizes their work while dumping the support and maintenance on them.

        That is the name of the game though if you use an MIT license.

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      • p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        At this point, teachers do it “for the love of the game”, but they still want to get paid more than minimum wage.

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    • deadcade@lemmy.deadca.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Absolutely true, but there’s one clear and obvious way; drop support for the project yourself.

      If a FOSS project is archived/unmaintained, for a large enough project, someone else will pick up where the original left off.

      FOSS maintainers don’t owe anyone anything. What some developers do is amazing and I want them to keep developing and maintaining their projects, but I don’t fault them for quitting if they do.

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      • p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        XKCD, of course

        If a FOSS project is archived/unmaintained, for a large enough project, someone else will pick up where the original left off.

        No, they won’t. This line of thinking is how we got the above.

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    • Vlyn@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Hey, if your project is important enough you might get your own Jia Tan (:

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  • silver_wings_of_morning@feddit.dk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Speaking only on the programming part of the slop machine, programmers typically copy code anyways. It’s not an ethical issue for a programmer using a tool that has been trained on other people’s “stolen” code.

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    • lostbit@feddit.nl ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      rofl don’t quit your day job

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  • Goretantath@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Just like how every other human artist learned how to draw by looking at examples their art teacher gave them, aka “stealing it” in your words.

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    • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      LLMs are not sentient and they’re not learning.

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• Dettweiler42@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  It’s all about curation and review. If they use AI to make the whole project, it’s going to be bloated slop. If they use it to write sections that they then review, edit, and validate; then it’s all good.

  I’m fairly anti-AI for most current applications, but I’m not against purpose-built tools for improving workflow. I use some of Photoshop’s generative tools for editing parts of images I’m using for training material. Sometimes it does fine, sometimes I have to clean it up, and sometimes it’s so bad it’s not worth it. I’m being very selective, and if the details are wrong it’s no good. In the end, it’s still a photo I took, and it has some necessary touchups.

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• drolex@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  • Ethical issue: products of the mind are what makes us humans. If we delegate art, intellectual works, creative labour, what’s left of us?
  • Socio-economic issue: if we lose labour to AI, surely the value produced automatically will be redistributed to the ones who need it most? (Yeah we know the answer to this one)
  • Cultural issue: AIs are appropriating intellectual works and virtually transferring their usufruct to bloody billionaires

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• RightHandOfIkaros@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Personally, I have never seen LLM generated code that works without needing to be edited, but I imagine for routine blocks of code and very common things it probably does fine. I dont see why a programmer needs to rewrite the same code blocks over and over again for different projects when an LLM can do that part leaving more time for the programmer to write the more specialized parts. The programmer will still have to edit and verify the generated code, but programming is more mechanical than something like art.

  However, for more specialized code, I would be concerned. It would likely not function at all without editing, and if it did function it probably wouldn’t be optimized or secure. However, this programmer claims to have 30 years of experience, and if thats the case then he likely knows this and probably edits the LLM output code himself.

  As I have said before, Generative AI is a tool, like PhotoShop. I dont see why people should reject a tool if it can make their job easier. It won’t be able to completely replace people effectively. Businesses will try, but quality will drop off because its not being used by people that understand what the end result needs to be, and businesses will inevitably lose money.

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  • p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    However, for more specialized code, I would be concerned. It would likely not function at all without editing, and if it did function it probably wouldn’t be optimized or secure.

    That’s not completely true. Claude and some of the Chinese coding models have gotten a lot better at creating a good first pass.

    That’s also why I like tests. Just force the model to prove that it works.

    Oh, you built the thing and think it’s finished? Prove it. Go run it. Did it work? No? Then go fix the bugs. Does it compile now? Cool, run the unit test platform. Got more bugs? Fix them. Now, go write more unit tests to match the bugs you found. You keep running into the same coding issue? Go write some rules for me that tell yourself not to do that shit.

    I mean, I’ve been doing this programming shit for many decades, and even I’ve been caught by my overconfidence of trying to write some big project and thinking it’s just going to work the first time. No reason to think even a high-powered Claude thinking model is going to magically just write the whole thing bug-free.

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• criss_cross@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  If a human is reviewing the code they submit and owning the changes I don’t care if they use an LLM or not. It’s when you just throw shit at the wall and hope it sticks that’s the problem.

  I’m more concerned with the admitted OpenClaw usage. That’s a hydrogen bomb heading straight for a fireworks factory.

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  • pivot_root@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    It’s the same for me.

    I don’t care if somebody uses Claude or Copilot if they take ownership and responsibility over the code it generates. If they ask AI to add a feature and it creates code that doesn’t fit within the project guidelines, that’s fine as long as they actually clean it up.

    I’m more concerned with the admitted OpenClaw usage. That’s a hydrogen bomb heading straight for a fireworks factory.

    This is the problem I have with it too. Using something that vulnerable to prompt injection to not only write code but commit it as well shows a complete lack of care for bare minimum security practices.

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  • obelisk_complex@piefed.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Yikes. Hadn’t heard about the openclaw use. That stack scares the bejeezus out of me.

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• Iheartcheese@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Yeah. Call me if he starts using AI artwork.

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  • wholookshere@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    so you draw the line at stealing artists work, but not programmers work?

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    • Dremor@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Being a developer, I don’t care if someone else uses my code. Code is like a brick. By itself it has little value, the real value lies on how it is used. If I find an optimal way to do something, my only wish is to make it available to as much people as possible. For the betterment of humanity.

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      • wholookshere@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Sure, but that’s just your view.

        And also not how LLMs work.

        They gobble up everything and cause unreadable code. Not learning.

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      • Miaou@jlai.lu ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Elon, Jeff, and Mark thank you for your service

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    • adeoxymus@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Tbh all programmers have been copy pasting from each other forever. The middle step of searching stack overflow or GitHub for the code you want is simply removed

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      • galaxy_nova@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Exactly. If someone has already come up with an optimal solution why the hell would I reimplement it. My real problems are not with LLMs themselves but rather the sourcing of the training data and the power usage. If I could use an “ethically sourced” llm locally I’d be mostly happy. Ultimately LLMs are also only good for code specifically. Architecture or things that require a lot of thought like data pipelines I’ve found AI to be pretty garbage at when experimenting

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      • wholookshere@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        That’s not what an LLM is doing is it.

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    • smeg@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Lutris is GPL-licenced, so isn’t it the opposite of stealing?

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      • wholookshere@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        LLMs have stolen works from more than just artists.

        ALL of public repositories at a minimum have been used as training, regardless of licence. including licneses that require all dirivitive work be under the same license.

        so there’s more than just lutris stollen.

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      • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        No, the LLM was trained on other code (possibly including Lutris, but also probably like billions of lines from other things)

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• XLE@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  “If”

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• Kowowow@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I want to one day make a game and there is no way I’m not prototyping it with llm code, though I would want to get things finalized by a real coder if I ever got the game finished but I’ve never made real progress on learning code even in school

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• The_Blinding_Eyes@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  While I know there is more nuance than this, but why should I spend any of my time on something, when you spent no time creating it? I know that applies more to the slop, but that’s where I am with most LLM generated stuff.

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