And when that happens, we move instances.
Comment on [deleted]
AllzeitBereit@feddit.uk 2 weeks ago
It’ll happen in the Fediverse too.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
rglullis@communick.news 2 weeks ago
If the idea of a healthy Fediverse requires people moving instances whenever one finds themselves close to bottom-feeders and opportunistic parasites, we already lost.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
It’s not so much the requirement of moving inasmuch it’s the ease of doing so.
With traditional social medi, you’d need to move entirely to another social media platform while you might not even be able to enjoy similar content. With lemmy&piefed, you can do that.
TheBat@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
That’s discord model.
Fediverse needs to have a layer which traps AI in a never-ending maze.
rimu@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
A never-ending maze would mean the scrapers just hammer our servers forever. Better to lead them into a honeypot and automatically ban their IP. Like PieFed does.
davidgro@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
What about a maze that adds a few hundred ms to the response time with each request, so the load gets less the longer it’s trapped?
TheBat@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
A never-ending maze would mean the scrapers just hammer our servers forever.
Is that how tarpitting works? I didn’t know.
Deceptichum@quokk.au 2 weeks ago
Sadly that only works for scrapers, content engaging bots are immune to it.
pimento64@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
So just find scrapers IRL and burn down their houses, easy
FaceDeer@fedia.io 2 weeks ago
How would that layer distinguish AI from non-AI?
4am@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
That’s the job of the web server, not of the application that runs on it.
There is already software you can get that feeds a never-ending maze of text to AI scrapers, some of which is AI generated and/or designed to poison LLM training. The problem is that these still use up a ton of bandwidth.
mapto@feddit.bg 2 weeks ago
Fortunately AI is taking care of that on its own doi.org/10.1038/s41586-024-07566-y
rimu@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
Yes PieFed has a setting for that. It makes scrapers give up pretty fast but ruins the experience for people without an account so I only use it on really bad days.
nutomic@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Lemmy also has an admin setting like that. Additionally there will be private, federated communities available in version 1.0.
Drusas@fedia.io 2 weeks ago
That's how it's been on my mbin instance (fedia.io) for a while now.
deafboy@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
the rest only accessible through login and verification
Yes. If you can’t fight the death of the www, embrace it! Help making it happen!
/s
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
I don’t need one of those stupid ID verifications. Something else should be that instead, but what, I do not know. Whatever helps counter AI scraping and preserves anonymity.
brendansimms@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Not if you use NORD VPN ™, fellow human. NORD VPN ™ guarantees filtering of astroturfing comments made by LLMs! Thats right - NORD VPN ™ does the following:
- Filters out comments made by LLMs
- Does not sell your data
- Filters out comments made by LLMs
Findus@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
I’m looking for a network and/or internet with strong authentication which is open for unique human users only. Sure, bots could still use someone’s credentials but at least their scale & impact would be limited.
stickly@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
strong authentication which is open for unique human users only
Unless you completely ditch anonymity, this can only turn into a state captured propoganda platform. Whoever controls access/auth will have the keys to the content.
addie@feddit.uk 2 weeks ago
If you’ve any suggestion on how to implement that, then it’s a million-dollar idea.
The “I’m a human” test that only takes a few seconds and then lets you do what you like for an hour was always vulnerable to ‘auth farms’. Pay some poor bastards in the third world a pittance to pass the test a thousand times an hour, let the bots run wild. And the bots have gained the ability to pass the tests themselves, at least by boiling the oceans in some datacentre while the VC money holds out.
Finding the people running the bots, fitting them with some very heavy boots and then seeing if they can swim in the deep ocean is probably needlessly cruel, but I’d be up for tarring and feathering a few. Once the videos got out, the rest might think harder about their life choices…
Sl00k@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
Most of this work is done via emulators if you have a hardware attestation process built in, it will stop most of it. Obviously you still have a problem with phone farms but those are much more expensive than emulators and there’s a physical capacity to them.
TWeaK@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
For it to happen in the Fediverse AI would have to be training on the Fediverse.
That’s what this post is about. Using reddit to plant comments that AI trains on, and subsequently getting AI to spit out your answer to questions it’s asked.
As such this can happen anywhere where AI is being trained. The issue is with how AI is training, not with how websites it trains on are being operated.
ultranaut@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
There isn’t really any reason to think the Fediverse won’t be used for AI training, if it isn’t already. Everything is in the open here, it’s easy enough to scrape all the data.
DarkSideOfTheMoon@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I know fediverse. Weds users and visibility but with all happening I wish it was disable to every crawler/bot
socsa@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
It’s one of the reasons I think public voting is a terrible idea. It’s a wet dream for hyper-targeted engagement farming. Even to the point it creates a bit of a nightmare scenario for spear phishing and malware injection. The stated “transparency” benefits just seem incredibly trivial compared to the risk, especially when actual malicious actors will simply spam bots and alts, while actual users must navigate this weirdly huge threat surface for basically no good reason.
UnspecificGravity@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
Only thing stopping it now is that’s it’s not popular enough to be worth doing.
umbrella@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
yeah, i havent seen anyone come up with a solution so far.
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
People downvote me when I say it. That’s all cope. We’re not wrong; if and when this goes mainstream, it’ll attract the same bad actors just as heavily.
Of course, there are surely already a few here testing the waters.
e8d79@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
I think there are some differences that make the fediverse more resilient to this. For example, the absence of cumulative account karma keeps out the reddit style karma farming. The ability to ban whole instances also makes it easier to kick out bad actors. Instance admins could also implement their own rules like switching to an invite based system to reduce bot spam. Also it seems to me that reddit is actively encouraging this kind behaviour to inflate their user statistics and there is no incentive to tolerate this kind of spam for a fediverse server admin.
hypnicjerk@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
karma is meaningless to seo outside of account restrictions. the people doing this as a job aren’t doing it for imaginary internet points
it doesn’t matter what individual instances do as long as the largest ones have open signups
mapto@feddit.bg 2 weeks ago
Yet you didn’t respond to the point that makes the difference:
Angelevo@feddit.nl 2 weeks ago
We are all rats. When this ship sinks, we will float to the next, or (decide to) drop off.
All things considered, how much would actually be lost?
The alternative being…
WolfmanEightySix@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
This comment made me realise that the internet could have been born, lived, and died, within my lifetime.
OpenStars@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
Like phone calls, and texting, bad actors ruin everything that they touch.
BurgerBaron@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
I consider internet dead at this point. I hang out on the outer edge in niche low population servers like the fediverse that the worst humans mostly ignore because spamming here isn’t profitable and manipulating politics doesn’t gain much for their efforts at the moment.
Angelevo@feddit.nl 2 weeks ago
Thank you for the strange compliment.
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Squeak
balsoft@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
The benefit of the fediverse is that it’s trivially “forkable”. If lemmy.world and other big instances get overwhelmed with bullshit, I fully expect that many smaller chill/focused instances will defederate and keep on doing their own things, chatting only with each other. Perhaps there would also be some in-between, instances which are federated with both worlds, and where you can get a combination of tons of niche information/entertainment but with bots, and a small amount of genuine human interaction. I hope if that ever happens, lemmy-the-software gets sorting algorithms to deal with these situations.
john_t@piefed.ee 2 weeks ago
There’s no algorithm to be played in the fediverse. The reward is too low for all the work of making a post visible, and it won’t carry to the next post, essentially starting all over again.
Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org 2 weeks ago
There presumably is. Something metric decides visibility on the feeds. That algorithm not being based on corporate profitability doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Mac@mander.xyz 2 weeks ago
In fact, it doesn’t matter if there’s no internal incentive. If it’s being indexed and shows in searches it will have all the incentive needed to maximise SEO for profit.
Sl00k@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
The Hot ordering is itself an algorithm.
Goodeye8@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
I mean there’s nothing preventing them for doing the same thing here. But if we could get a more even split of users between instances it would arguably be harder for them to pull the same thing because a) the admins can intervene and ban those accounts because the admins are not corporate slaves, unless they are in which case b) other instances can just ban the instance that is letting corporations go wild. We’ve already seen that level of “moderation” with Lemmygrad being ostracized from the wider Lemmy/Piefed ecosystem.
It’s going to require more work from mods and admins, but I imagine we’ll fare better than Reddit. After-all Reddit has an incentive to support this kind of behavior.
Sl00k@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
I agree the Fediverse is not in a good spot for something like this.
I actually think this is where the identity system of atproto will be more impactful here as it allows a better verification system. I’ve been thinking lately you should be able to use hardware attestation + biometric attestation on apps to filter these emulated users out.