And when that happens, we move instances.
Comment on [deleted]
AllzeitBereit@feddit.uk 3 months ago
It’ll happen in the Fediverse too.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 months ago
rglullis@communick.news 3 months ago
If the idea of a healthy Fediverse requires people moving instances whenever one finds themselves close to bottom-feeders and opportunistic parasites, we already lost.
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 months ago
It’s not so much the requirement of moving inasmuch it’s the ease of doing so.
With traditional social medi, you’d need to move entirely to another social media platform while you might not even be able to enjoy similar content. With lemmy&piefed, you can do that.
TheBat@lemmy.world 3 months ago
That’s discord model.
Fediverse needs to have a layer which traps AI in a never-ending maze.
rimu@piefed.social 3 months ago
A never-ending maze would mean the scrapers just hammer our servers forever. Better to lead them into a honeypot and automatically ban their IP. Like PieFed does.
davidgro@lemmy.world 3 months ago
What about a maze that adds a few hundred ms to the response time with each request, so the load gets less the longer it’s trapped?
TheBat@lemmy.world 3 months ago
A never-ending maze would mean the scrapers just hammer our servers forever.
Is that how tarpitting works? I didn’t know.
Deceptichum@quokk.au 3 months ago
Sadly that only works for scrapers, content engaging bots are immune to it.
pimento64@sopuli.xyz 3 months ago
So just find scrapers IRL and burn down their houses, easy
FaceDeer@fedia.io 3 months ago
How would that layer distinguish AI from non-AI?
4am@lemmy.zip 3 months ago
That’s the job of the web server, not of the application that runs on it.
There is already software you can get that feeds a never-ending maze of text to AI scrapers, some of which is AI generated and/or designed to poison LLM training. The problem is that these still use up a ton of bandwidth.
mapto@feddit.bg 3 months ago
Fortunately AI is taking care of that on its own doi.org/10.1038/s41586-024-07566-y
rimu@piefed.social 3 months ago
Yes PieFed has a setting for that. It makes scrapers give up pretty fast but ruins the experience for people without an account so I only use it on really bad days.
nutomic@lemmy.ml 3 months ago
Lemmy also has an admin setting like that. Additionally there will be private, federated communities available in version 1.0.
Drusas@fedia.io 3 months ago
That's how it's been on my mbin instance (fedia.io) for a while now.
deafboy@lemmy.world 3 months ago
the rest only accessible through login and verification
Yes. If you can’t fight the death of the www, embrace it! Help making it happen!
/s
birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 months ago
I don’t need one of those stupid ID verifications. Something else should be that instead, but what, I do not know. Whatever helps counter AI scraping and preserves anonymity.
brendansimms@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Not if you use NORD VPN ™, fellow human. NORD VPN ™ guarantees filtering of astroturfing comments made by LLMs! Thats right - NORD VPN ™ does the following:
- Filters out comments made by LLMs
- Does not sell your data
- Filters out comments made by LLMs
Findus@feddit.org 3 months ago
I’m looking for a network and/or internet with strong authentication which is open for unique human users only. Sure, bots could still use someone’s credentials but at least their scale & impact would be limited.
stickly@lemmy.world 3 months ago
strong authentication which is open for unique human users only
Unless you completely ditch anonymity, this can only turn into a state captured propoganda platform. Whoever controls access/auth will have the keys to the content.
addie@feddit.uk 3 months ago
If you’ve any suggestion on how to implement that, then it’s a million-dollar idea.
The “I’m a human” test that only takes a few seconds and then lets you do what you like for an hour was always vulnerable to ‘auth farms’. Pay some poor bastards in the third world a pittance to pass the test a thousand times an hour, let the bots run wild. And the bots have gained the ability to pass the tests themselves, at least by boiling the oceans in some datacentre while the VC money holds out.
Finding the people running the bots, fitting them with some very heavy boots and then seeing if they can swim in the deep ocean is probably needlessly cruel, but I’d be up for tarring and feathering a few. Once the videos got out, the rest might think harder about their life choices…
Sl00k@programming.dev 3 months ago
Most of this work is done via emulators if you have a hardware attestation process built in, it will stop most of it. Obviously you still have a problem with phone farms but those are much more expensive than emulators and there’s a physical capacity to them.
TWeaK@lemmy.today 3 months ago
For it to happen in the Fediverse AI would have to be training on the Fediverse.
That’s what this post is about. Using reddit to plant comments that AI trains on, and subsequently getting AI to spit out your answer to questions it’s asked.
As such this can happen anywhere where AI is being trained. The issue is with how AI is training, not with how websites it trains on are being operated.
ultranaut@lemmy.world 3 months ago
There isn’t really any reason to think the Fediverse won’t be used for AI training, if it isn’t already. Everything is in the open here, it’s easy enough to scrape all the data.
DarkSideOfTheMoon@lemmy.world 3 months ago
I know fediverse. Weds users and visibility but with all happening I wish it was disable to every crawler/bot
socsa@piefed.social 3 months ago
It’s one of the reasons I think public voting is a terrible idea. It’s a wet dream for hyper-targeted engagement farming. Even to the point it creates a bit of a nightmare scenario for spear phishing and malware injection. The stated “transparency” benefits just seem incredibly trivial compared to the risk, especially when actual malicious actors will simply spam bots and alts, while actual users must navigate this weirdly huge threat surface for basically no good reason.
UnspecificGravity@piefed.social 3 months ago
Only thing stopping it now is that’s it’s not popular enough to be worth doing.
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 3 months ago
People downvote me when I say it. That’s all cope. We’re not wrong; if and when this goes mainstream, it’ll attract the same bad actors just as heavily.
Of course, there are surely already a few here testing the waters.
e8d79@discuss.tchncs.de 3 months ago
I think there are some differences that make the fediverse more resilient to this. For example, the absence of cumulative account karma keeps out the reddit style karma farming. The ability to ban whole instances also makes it easier to kick out bad actors. Instance admins could also implement their own rules like switching to an invite based system to reduce bot spam. Also it seems to me that reddit is actively encouraging this kind behaviour to inflate their user statistics and there is no incentive to tolerate this kind of spam for a fediverse server admin.
hypnicjerk@lemmy.world 3 months ago
karma is meaningless to seo outside of account restrictions. the people doing this as a job aren’t doing it for imaginary internet points
it doesn’t matter what individual instances do as long as the largest ones have open signups
mapto@feddit.bg 3 months ago
Yet you didn’t respond to the point that makes the difference:
Angelevo@feddit.nl 3 months ago
We are all rats. When this ship sinks, we will float to the next, or (decide to) drop off.
All things considered, how much would actually be lost?
The alternative being…
WolfmanEightySix@piefed.social 3 months ago
This comment made me realise that the internet could have been born, lived, and died, within my lifetime.
OpenStars@piefed.social 3 months ago
Like phone calls, and texting, bad actors ruin everything that they touch.
BurgerBaron@piefed.social 3 months ago
I consider internet dead at this point. I hang out on the outer edge in niche low population servers like the fediverse that the worst humans mostly ignore because spamming here isn’t profitable and manipulating politics doesn’t gain much for their efforts at the moment.
Angelevo@feddit.nl 3 months ago
Thank you for the strange compliment.
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Squeak
balsoft@lemmy.ml 3 months ago
The benefit of the fediverse is that it’s trivially “forkable”. If lemmy.world and other big instances get overwhelmed with bullshit, I fully expect that many smaller chill/focused instances will defederate and keep on doing their own things, chatting only with each other. Perhaps there would also be some in-between, instances which are federated with both worlds, and where you can get a combination of tons of niche information/entertainment but with bots, and a small amount of genuine human interaction. I hope if that ever happens, lemmy-the-software gets sorting algorithms to deal with these situations.
john_t@piefed.ee 3 months ago
There’s no algorithm to be played in the fediverse. The reward is too low for all the work of making a post visible, and it won’t carry to the next post, essentially starting all over again.
Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org 3 months ago
There presumably is. Something metric decides visibility on the feeds. That algorithm not being based on corporate profitability doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Mac@mander.xyz 3 months ago
In fact, it doesn’t matter if there’s no internal incentive. If it’s being indexed and shows in searches it will have all the incentive needed to maximise SEO for profit.
Sl00k@programming.dev 3 months ago
The Hot ordering is itself an algorithm.
Goodeye8@piefed.social 3 months ago
I mean there’s nothing preventing them for doing the same thing here. But if we could get a more even split of users between instances it would arguably be harder for them to pull the same thing because a) the admins can intervene and ban those accounts because the admins are not corporate slaves, unless they are in which case b) other instances can just ban the instance that is letting corporations go wild. We’ve already seen that level of “moderation” with Lemmygrad being ostracized from the wider Lemmy/Piefed ecosystem.
It’s going to require more work from mods and admins, but I imagine we’ll fare better than Reddit. After-all Reddit has an incentive to support this kind of behavior.
Sl00k@programming.dev 3 months ago
I agree the Fediverse is not in a good spot for something like this.
I actually think this is where the identity system of atproto will be more impactful here as it allows a better verification system. I’ve been thinking lately you should be able to use hardware attestation + biometric attestation on apps to filter these emulated users out.