If someone tells you "you support socialism, yet you use products of capitalism", what would you say?

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• markovs_gun@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I explain that isn’t really what socialism is about and actually engage. Most people don’t actually know what socialism is in practice and especially in the US their ideas are from actual propaganda they had in schools. Even self described socialists in the US often fall into the “socialism is when the government does things” trap and most people believe the lie they were told in school that socialism is necessarily the complete abolition of private property and money without questioning how that would even work in practice. I would say fewer than 10-20% of the US population even has a functional knowledge of what socialism even is in practice despite having extremely strong opinions about it.

  Things like the quote in the OP are “thought terminating cliches” that serve to stop thought and dialogue before alternate ideas actually get discussed rather then form the basis of actual ideas themselves. For this one in particular I ask if they have ever actually read what Karl Marx believed and if they know that even Marx agreed with the premise that capitalism breeds innovation and economic growth, at least at the start. That this is true is not a problem for socialism intrinsically. You’re never going to change someone’s worldview or undo a lifetime of propaganda in one conversation, but you can crack the door a little and maybe spark some doubt or get someone curious enough to read on their own.

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• Havatra@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Only a sith deals in absolutes

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• remon@ani.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  “Sure” or just nod. They didn’t even ask a question, so no need to say anything.

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• Cevilia@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I don’t think I’d bother engaging, if they’re speaking in simplistic gotchas they probably got from the internet I have better things to do with my time, such as my wife

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• ch00f@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  Image

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• whaleross@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  Ask them why they drive on public roads.

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  • deafboy@lemmy.world ⁨23⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    It’s hard to compete in road construction with the guys building on stolen land paying for labor with stolen money.

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• pulsewidth@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  Tell them they’re using one of the oldest logical fallacies, and Ancient philosophers would be embarrassed by them.

  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

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• starlinguk@lemmy.world ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  “Learn the difference between socialism and communism is before you say things like that.”

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  • DylanMc6@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    “Socialism involves people owning the means of production (whether in a market economy or a planned one). Communism involves exactly that as well, but in a classless stateless moneyless society. No class war, no state, no money, no problem.”

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    • Airowird@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Socialism is a form of government where the equality of people comes first.

      The entire US anti-socialist kneejerk is because Marx said that socialism as a stepping stone to communism is the only non-violent way to get there

      Socialist democracy allows for capitalism, as long as the government protects its people from the capitalist tendancy to turn into an oligarchy.

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    • starlinguk@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Nope.

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• Pat_Riot@lemmy.today ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I’ve seen that kind of behavior in exactly two places, Lemmy and Reddit. Not one time in real life have I been asked such a question, and I am pretty fucking outspoken about my opinions.

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• AceFuzzLord@lemmy.zip ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  “You expect me to not participate in this society and just die instead? Cards are currently stacked against us and I’m playing my hand the best I can!”

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• bizzle@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  “I won’t engage in bad faith debate with a dumbass”

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• magnetosphere@fedia.io ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  “Despite my personal beliefs, I still live in a capitalist society, and have to get along somehow.”

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  • DylanMc6@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    “I may be a socialist, but I live under capitalism, and I’ve gotten used to that.”

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• ilinamorato@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  "It’s called socialism. I need a society to do it. You like baseball? Why aren’t you playing it right now?

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  • Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Ok…but, in line with my username, I’m going to stay true to form! I shall take your reaction, which makes sense and proves a point, and I shall instead only use a small out of context portion of it as MY reply. The following series of discussion would in no way make sense, BUT don’t worry. I’ll just gas light the other person by insisting it makes total sense! And then someone will reply “Username relevant”.

    “You support socialism, yet you use products of capitalism”

    “YOU SHOULD PLAY BASEBALL!”

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• slazer2au@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  Ask them for products recommendations.

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  • DylanMc6@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Like what?

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    • Lumidaub@feddit.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      Exactly.

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• P1nkman@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  Because I cannot go live on an island and invent the internet. Just because I’m playing the game does not mean I like it. Don’t confuse consumerism with activism.

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• ElcaineVolta@kbin.melroy.org ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  the most authentic critiques of a system tend to come from within it.

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• RobotToaster@mander.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  Ask them why they use products made in Communist China.

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  • TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    China isn’t communist

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• l_isqof@lemmy.world ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I would just point out that you still need to buy things under socialism, and prob communism at that. Shops still exist in Communist countries.

  The main difference is the level of choice one gets, and that it’s likely not sold just for the sake of it, but because people actually need it.

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  • DylanMc6@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I mean that is true, you still have to buy stuff under socialism and communism - I think that under market socialism, prices will have to be controlled. This is where a planned market economy comes in.

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• Perspectivist@feddit.uk ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  I’d ask them what makes them think I support socialism.

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• Nioxic@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  I use the least capitalistic options?

  Easy answer

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• bryndos@fedia.io ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  you do what you can.

  Substitute labour intensive alternatives. Its generally quite easy for recreation just go to an open mic night in the pub or a pwyf concert instead of all these streaming things. or take a walk in the park, or a hike in the hills instead of spending money on entertainment. Something like a game of football/soccer is pretty ultimate socialism entertainment - just don't pay to watch other people get your kicks for you.

  Go out of your way to use public transport as much as possible even if it's slower or more inconvenient. This good practice in compromise to try social efficiency and sharing assets over individualistic self centredness - this is basically tragedy of commons/prisoners dilemma though so . . . ultimately your society will need some general trust for this to work - and it will break down often.

  If you need stuff prefer patent expired or open source stuff, or just old second hand stuff. also get buy it for life stuff.
  Personally i can have hours of fun with a discarded wood pallet and some very old hand tools.

  Patent expired i.e. more open to competition/"free" market forces is like one step more socialised than the oligopolised stuff.
  (That is where the free applies to the trades in the market and access to it, not to the people who want the 'freedom' to restrict trade and market entry.)

  You can also try to share stuff with your friends and neighbors - that's pretty sociable.
  At the end of the day though land and food is essential, so if that's not available socially, you're fucked.
  Grow what you can and share it around i guess.

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  • DylanMc6@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    What about improv?

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    • bryndos@fedia.io ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      yeah definately. i mean pretty much anything live. people sitting in a room entertaining each other, that's fairly social, and much less capital intensive than big media entertainment .

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