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Comment on And nothing of value was lost

JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

controversial opinion

These nazi racist fuckheads are still human beings. As unfortunate as it may be and as implausible it might seem, any of us are capable of becoming or raising someone to become entrenched in a bad and hateful ideology. Dehumanizing them doesn’t stop their ideas from spreading. In fact, a big part of their ideology is the dehumanization of different groups of people. So please don’t encourage that practice.

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PalmTreeIsBestTree@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
There is only so much empathy you can lend out to a black hole before it sucks you into its hateful gravitational pool. Purity tests like what you are proposing just makes them stronger.

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- JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I’m not saying you have to treat them with kindness. I am saying you have to reckon with the fact that they are still human. Or you will be doomed to follow the same path.
  
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  - PalmTreeIsBestTree@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I recognize what happened to them was wrong and shouldn’t have happened, but I am glad it wasn’t a person of better moral character to be the victim.
    
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    Soulg@ani.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    This is a much better and well reasoned take than the one in the OP image.
    
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  - tane@lemy.lol ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I don’t believe they are the same species as me. They have devolved to the point where their brains lack empathy, a distinctly human trait.
    
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    the_crotch@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You sound an awful lot like a Nazi right now.
    
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    AlexLost@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Is empathy only a human trait? Doubtful. Animals have been known to show empathy as well. Humans aren’t all that special, we’ve just learned to fuck over everything else on the planet.
    
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- sartalon@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Wouldn’t the fascists even argue that empathy is toxic?
  
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  - PalmTreeIsBestTree@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    They do, but they also perform double speak to counter their hypocrisy. They’re rather famous for doing it.
    
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Nangijala@feddit.dk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
It’s literally the one message every old European used to preach to us younger generations back in the day. I remember how important it was to them to make us understand that the minute we start dehumanizing people we don’t like, we are repeating the cycle.

It is why movies like Der Untergang exists. We have to understand that the most despicable people who ever lived were still human beings and much closer to ourselves than we like to think.

I have carried with me, my whole life the knowledge that I am fallible and I am capable of evil no matter how good of a person I think I am. To a lesser extent, every time I have thought I was too clever to fall for x, y and z, that’s when I have fallen right into it. “I would never end up in an abusive relationship. I have too much self respect for that” 🤡 “I’m far too strong to become the doormat in this and that friendship” 🤡 “I’ll never fall for fake information online. I’m too observant” 🤡

I could never trust myself to believe I would be too smart, kind or principled to not fall into a destructive and abusive pattern of behavior if the circumstances are twisted just right. I think more people would benefit if they reminded themselves of their imperfections and got off their high horses. On Lemmy alone I have encountered far too many holier than thou types who are super duper anti fascist but ironically act exactly like fascists, but to them it doesn’t count because they are “on the right side of history”.

Am I sad that some nazi KKK guy died? No. But he was human. Most likely a very terrible human, but still human.

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- prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The problem is that fascists know that normal people are empathetic in this way, and they use it against us. It makes it nearly impossible to stop them.
  
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  - Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Acknowledging and understanding they are human DOES NOT mean cowing down or bowing down to them.
    
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    prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Not explicitly. But, in my experience, that is the implication when people say that.
    
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  - Nangijala@feddit.dk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    So we should just give up and become them, is what you’re saying. That works well for two minutes and then you replace the problem with a new one. Russia is a good example of that, lol.
    
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    prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    So we should just give up and become them, is what you’re saying.
    
    If that was your takeaway, either you need to re-read my comment, or I do because that’s not at all what I meant to say.
    
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  - acockworkorange@mander.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    If someone this to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!
    
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- needthosepylons@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I do agree with almost everything you wrote, but I don’t understand the moral consequence. One do not have to think they’re too smart or too pure to take some kind of solace from the fact that there’s one less fascist walking the earth.
  
  To me, that has nothing to do with being “better” as a human. It’s just that their project means my/our death. The more they grow, the more we die and vice versa. I do not dehumanize them nor do I think they’re stupid or deserve anything.
  
  It’s as simple as : the more they grow, the more anything I care for will wither away.
  
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  - HasturInYellow@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You’re right, but it makes people uncomfortable so they don’t want to agree with you.
    
    This isn’t like the economy. It IS a zero sum game. If they succeed, we lose. If they thrive in life, we lose. If they continue to live at all, we lose.
    
    They can CHOOSE to come back to humanity, unlike their victims, but I won’t give them any consideration as having value until they do.
    
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  - Nangijala@feddit.dk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    All that was said was that they are still human. Even if we dislike them. That is all. I find it interesting how defensive people are being about acknowledging that a terrible person is still a person.
    
    If we stop acknowledging a bad person as a being a person, we have become what we hate. Its got nothing to do with caring or not caring about a kkk member dying. All we have reacted to was the claim that the guy wasn’t a human. That is the dangerous part.
    
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    needthosepylons@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    ICYMI, I didn’t want to sound defensive. I mean it’s an interesting conservation, and I found it intriguing that I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote yet arrive at a slightly different conclusion. People don’t always look to pick fights, sometimes, it’s just about discussion.
    
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- postmateDumbass@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  So give her partial credit on the community service part of the sentence?
  
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  - Nangijala@feddit.dk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The only one talking about community service is you, I fear. Can’t give credit for anything that wasn’t said.
    
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DoucheBagMcSwag@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Not going to downvote but no they’re subhuman.

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- bramkaandorp@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  Nazi lives don’t matter. The paradox of tolerance goes both ways. Do not tolerate the intolerant.
  
  It’s not even a paradox. Being tolerant means allowing things you disagree with, but only up to a point.
  
  It is fallacy to think that if we are intolerant to intolerance, we then become intolerant, thus defeating our own tolerance.
  
  A fallacy mostly promoted by right-wingers.
  
  The problem I have is that, although we shouldn’t tolerate Nazis, treating their deaths in car accidents as a non-event at best, or a national holiday at worst, does feel like moving toward the same dehumanising treatment that Nazis give to those they hate.
  
  I don’t like it.
  
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FriskyDingo@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Genuinely curious your perspective: so what then?

How would you want to handle the growing fascism problem because I believe shaming, ridicule and cruelty are due with where we stand and with how bad things are and how much, much, worse they can get.

These are your enemies theh have the entire govenment and a cult and they want to brutalize, make illegal and remove people (one way or the other).

What do you propose?

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- JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I believe I called them fuckheads so I don’t seem to have a problem with ridicule. My point of contention is in the reply tweet of “no human being was harmed”. I’m not trying to defend the thoughts or actions of these people, I’m just saying we have to recognize that they are people. I propose building a better world, proving those ideas wrong, and defending ourselves when necessary.
  
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  - leftthegroup@lemmings.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    It doesn’t really matter if we think they’re people. It doesn’t really matter if they are. We (all the worthy humans) should treat them as non people.
    
    I can’t see a negative here beyond false identification. If there was an objective, without a doubt way to measure if someone was a Nazi, I would support genociding them (and only them). Proactively. It should simply be as illegal to just be a Nazi on the same level as it would be to murder an entire country’s population.
    
    Turns out that is either impossible or we’re millions of years from figuring out how to do that safely (safe in terms of not harming non Nazis). But the minute we do I’d be on board with punishing them for daring to be born. There is no world of timeline in which being Nazi isn’t worthy of immediate execution.
    
    But since all of that is a pipe dream, in the mean time we can at least celebrate when they get taken out naturally. I wouldn’t like rub it in the family’s face (unless they were Nazis as well) or anything, but I’m definitely not even gonna act sad about it. The more pain they feel as they die, the harder I laugh. Tough lessons suck to learn. Sorry NOT sorry.
    
    As a last note, I think that would be the better world, and it would be defending ourselves from their existence, which is a threat to everyone. As long as that idea is still in someone’s head, no one is safe.
    
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    Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yes, it does. Because when you don’t acknowledge someone, you start pretending they shouldn’t have any rights at all, and then you can fall victim, far more easily, when they scapegoat someone, or fall victim to that hatred being redirected to an invalid target
    
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    JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I’m not trying to defend them. I’m trying to point out that you’re not defending yourself from that idea. In a world where all the nazis have been genocided, that is a world that accepts genocide as a reasonable solution. That world will commit another genocide and sooner than you might think. Especially when you consider that it didn’t start with nazism. There were confederates before them and there are zionists after them. If you accept one genocide then any other just has to find the right justifications. Recognizing human susceptibility to that idea is the first step in protecting yourself from it. If we fail to do so, the cycle will never end.
    
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- enbipanic@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Shame, cruelty, and ridicule, but as humans. Let them own what they did.
  
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callouscomic@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Ummmm.

No?

Fuck nazis and kkk and southern pride and confederate apologists and white supremacists and bigots of all kinds.

Like get fucked. Straight up well known nazis can fucking die. They are worthless. They make a choice to continue being that way. They can do irreparable harm.

Like, fucking no. Just no. You’re pathetic.

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- JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The ability to strip away the title of “human being” is exactly what they are arguing for. You just have different criteria.
  
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  - MotoAsh@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I hope one day you come to realize this is as stupid of a take as saying, “violence is bad!” towards someone bloodied ans bruised who just defended themselves from an attack.
    
    At a certain point, someone deserves to be punched in the face. At a certain point, someone deserves to be treated less than a cordial human being.
    
    Ironically, I still agree with, “we need to remember these are human beings”. Yes, yes we do. Because we need to ALWAYS remember the sheer depravity other human beings are capable of. That does NOT mean they deserve respect or even life.
    
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    Bubbey@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    this is as stupid of a take as saying, “violence is bad!” towards someone bloodied and bruised who just defended themselves from an attack.
    
    Self defense is different than drunkenly flattening a pedestrian lmao
    
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    JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You’re arguing against things I did not say nor imply. I have made no argument here against self defense nor for civility.
    
    I am abiding the paradox of tolerance by not tolerating dehumanizing rhetoric. Because I believe that rhetoric enables fascism.
    
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    JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Jumping back here to say that
    
    we need to ALWAYS remember the sheer depravity ~~other~~ human beings are capable of.
    
    Is the only thing I’m saying
    
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  - blah3166@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    if a society extends tolerance to those who are intolerant, it risks enabling the eventual dominance of intolerance; thereby undermining the very principle of tolerance
    
    Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
    
    The world would be better off if everyone with racist views disappeared today. Let's not defend those who would not hesitate to oppress us.
    
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  - porous_grey_matter@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    What those criteria are matters
    
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    Soulg@ani.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    And they’re all bad.
    
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  - Neverclear@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You are right. If we exclude any population from rehabilitation, we join said population.
    
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    HasturInYellow@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Until they are rehabilitated though, I will treat them as maggots. Being human does not automatically grant you untouchability for your actions. It doesn’t absolve you of your sins. It does not mean anyone around you must tolerate your continued existence.
    
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- Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Why do you think considering someone human is mutually exclusive with wishing death upon them/thinking it’s fine for them to die.
  
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  - callouscomic@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Persecution fetish exists regardless how you treat them. Some just WANT to feel persecuted to feel like they have some kind of casus belli.
    
    Also, yoh either experience and/or witness enough bigotry that you reach a point of being fucking done with the hateful spiteful pieces of shit.
    
    Fuck. Them. All. Everyone who has even an ounce of racist white supremacist Aryan whatever the fuck thoughts or actions. Fuck their flags. Fuck their views. Fuck their lives. Fuck everything about them. Scum of the earth. The vast majority will never change. Fuck em.
    
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sweemoof@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Two counterpoints to this (although I like the spirit):the paradox of intolerance suggests that intolerance will easily spread if we tolerate it. So in a world where tolerance is abundant: intolerance itself should still not be tolerated.

In a way I feel this may be saying the same thing again, but when we speak of protected classes and human rights we generally think of immutable qualities assigned at birth. That is, it’s not okay to discriminate based on things such as skin color, height, sound of voice, heritage, language, race, disability etc. and you get the idea.

Modern ideas stretch this a bit, as sexuality and gender identity have recently (as in within the last century, and only then within more educated cultures) entered as protected facets of human expression due to our understanding of them as involuntary. Even an individual’s personal religion is universally considered to not be up for debate, even though each of the world’s religions are composed of transient beliefs that an individual is allowed to change whether they are comfortable with it or not.

Any group’s ideas for societal idealism do not and should not get these types of protections, because ideas obviously should change if a better idea is presented. It should be agreed upon that whatever utopia is (for however the human race can get close to it), it would need to be universally agreed upon by all living individuals as well as all possible human group permutations. This is seemingly insurmountably large, so some of us tried to take shortcuts by eliminating other groups, and to make a long story short you could say the world universally condemned these ideas as one of the first “global” acts.

The point is, if somebody has:

Willingly violated the social contract in defiance of available historical context and public information, and

Elected to voluntarily hold that an aforementioned Protected Class of people should be either eliminated or exiled (in service to making their version of utopia easier to achieve), then

Then this somebody has found themselves to be a member of the one group of people (a group founded on voluntary belief) that society at large would be better to either eliminate or exile.

Obviously debate is preferred but one cannot reason with somebody who believes deep down in another group’s inferiority.
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- foo@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I agree with all you wrote, and it’s a good point well made. However, in the context of what it’s replying to, it could be interpreted as condoning the death penalty for extremists, which I disagree with, if it was intended that way.
  
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  - breecher@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Death penalty, but more likely death in combat while trying to oust them from society. Like was done in WWII. These fuckers aren’t going anywhere voluntarily, it will take violence to remove them from society.
    
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  - sweemoof@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I see what you mean, in my case I believe that the only viable options are debate then expulsion in extreme cases.
    
    I know I was being somewhat brash when I wrote this (middle of the night where I am) and would likely omit the “or eliminated” part if I written again. I know that was a popular option durning the Nuremberg trials for some of the worst orchestrators but I’m always of the “We have to be better/there has to be a better way” mindset.
    
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- JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  My point is less about what rights they might deserve, and more about staying informed and vigilant of the ideological capacities of human beings, including yourself.
  
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TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I would ask you, is it OK to fight Nazis in a war? If you say yes, then what’s the difference?

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- Nangijala@feddit.dk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The point isn’t whether or not it is okay to fight nazis. The commenter only states that the guy who died is still a human even if we don’t like him.
  
  That is a fact. If we start dehumanizing people we don’t like, we open ourselves up to becoming monsters no matter how justified we feel we are.
  
  I struggle with this myself. I have a deep-seated disgust toward narcissists and emotionally, I do not consider them human beings. Rationally, I know that they are and that if I continue to refuse to accept that they are one of the countless aspects of humanity, I open myself up to my own narcissistic aspects, where I see an entire subsection of humanity as lesser than me, as pests instead of human beings with a severe personality disorder that most likely came from repeated childhood neglect and abuse.
  
  It is okay to feel strong negative emotions toward people we don’t like, but we cannot allow ourselves to dehumanizing them because that is how we become monsters ourselves.
  
  Empathy is hard because it isn’t always the easiest or most comfortable path. It can feel downright injust at times, but that is all emotions talking. The more we think about it, truly reflect on it, the more we will understand that choosing empathy over emotional outbursts, will serve us and society far better in the long run. But it is fucking difficult.
  
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  - postmateDumbass@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You make good, valid points.
    
    But there are people that will continually take from or harm you and ask for empathy afterwards.
    
    Your philosophy needs to deal with those situations as well.
    
    Never harming back has negative consequences for your self.
    
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  - HasturInYellow@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Choices where you harm or oppress others for your own benefit means losing your humanity.
    
    I will not be strong armed into giving moral weight to people whose entire existence revolves around subjugating and hurting people.
    
    Just because someone is biologically human, does not mean they deserve any consideration from me. Context is king, and if you’re a shit person, you can die. I’m so done with pussy fitting around these fuckwads and letting them own everything just because we don’t want to be mean to them.
    
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    Nangijala@feddit.dk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You are missing the point. It’s not about being mean or not mean. It is about acknowledging that bad people are still people. Doesn’t change the fact that they suck and deserve punishment for the crimes they commit. But pretending like they aren’t human is how you become like them. That is all.
    
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- Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Are you incapable of fighting someone you consider human?
  
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  - TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I consider Nazis human, and id 100% get in a fight with them.
    
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    JeSuisUnHombre@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Same
    
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laserm@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This. Dehumanizing people, even the scum of the world, is not good or justified.

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GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
one of the primary protections of the constitution is that nobody can infringe upon your constitutional rights. if they do, they lose some of the protections given to them through the constitution.

I think it’s fair that if some racist fuckhole wants to kill people based on their color or gender identity, it’s only fair that we celebrate when they die. obviously death is not the goal, however a celebration that the hate they injected into the world is now slightly weaker over all is.

my point is, if you lead a life of an asshole you will be remembered as an asshole.

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- the_crotch@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  You can celebrate their deaths all you want. But Wlwhen you start dehumanizing them you’re taking notes from their playbook. Be better than them.
  
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  - GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    Be better than them.
    
    I am already better than them. I don’t advocate for needless violence or aggression against people who have shown me neither.
    
    However, I advocate for the use of deadly force against anyone who attempts to circumvent my rights and freedoms in an attempt to oppress or imprison me unjustly.
    
    I won’t forget they are human. If I would, that would make it much more difficult to explain why they had to die. An animal kills for survival. A beast kills for sport. A human kills for principle.
    
    It’s not about the death or act of killing, it’s about sending a message. “I am here, and I refuse to submit to your unjust will.”
    
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dickalan@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
^reddit chud

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YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I disagree with the comment directly below you.

I like my mom way more than my dad, and I took on her political beliefs(which are objectively better).

But we are all creatures of our environment.

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Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Yes yes, we won’t use this as an excuse to fix the broken clock

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