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Comment on I never realized this
lugal@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
Unpopular opinion: Last names are inherently patriarchal and so is marriage
bradd@lemmy.world 1 year ago
lugal@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
An aspect of patriarchy is patrilineality. Belonging to your fathers lineage rather than your mother’s or even being stripped of your heritage and being a mere adjunct to your husband isn’t materially benefiting the man but lays the ground for that
spujb@lemmy.cafe 1 year ago
the patriarchy doesn’t benefit the male. in fact, most men are overall harmed by the forces of patriarchy.
the goal of patriarchy is to subjugate and repress an “other,” that is, women. it’s true that patriarchy gives privelege to men, but equating privilege and benefit is to misunderstand the core components of the system.
tomi000@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Why would that be the case? How would marriage between two equals in a non-patriarchy be patriarchal? What about marriage between two women? What about last names in a society of beings without gender?
I think you didnt mean ‘inherently’
dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
is that an unpopular opinion, or just a well-known fact?
lugal@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
Maybe all my downvotes come from people who say it’s the latter? I’ve been in bubbles that see it as a well known fact, I’ve talked to left leaning people who didn’t. Maybe it’s just a wording I used to attract attention, maybe not, we will never know for sure.
dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
my instance doesn’t show downvotes, so all I see is that you have lots of upvotes 😊
I suspect downvotes would come from people who disagree that marriage is patriarchal, tbh - I think a lot of people don’t really understand patriarchy or feminism, so they might thing you are being hyperbolic, like claiming marriage is akin to beating your wife or something.
Or they could just be responding merely to the language and not even the content, i.e. by talking about patriarchy at all or posing it in social terms they might think you have been duped by woke propaganda.
lugal@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
my instance doesn’t show downvotes, so all I see is that you have lots of upvotes 😊
In that case: the majority is still upvotes so I’m not complaining or anything :)
SuperApples@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I think the downvotes come from a semantic disagreement, based on a strong or weak definition of the word ‘inherent’.
ameancow@lemmy.world 1 year ago
[deleted]shalafi@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Sigh. Lemmy in a nutshell.
lugal@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
Except that it’s older than that, even in Europe, there was quite some time between the Black Plague and capitalism. But they originate in China where they are much older. Sure, capitalism is composed of many aspects and maybe China had some aspect associated with capitalism back than as well and I’m not too sure about the connection between Europe and China regarding last names. I donno.
spujb@lemmy.cafe 1 year ago
In The Second Sex, De Beauvoir quotes Engels as he argues that patriarchy (as we know it today) likely arose with the advent of private property. So there is some relation to capitalism (of which private property is a core component), but it goes back way further than the Black Plague and marking it down to “trade promotion” is over-simplistic at best in that it’s wayyyy worse than that.
lugal@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
What you are saying is that private property laid the basis for patriarchy and (much later) for capitalism
spujb@lemmy.cafe 1 year ago
that’s right, promoting your trade is capitalism folks
daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
On Spain we have two last names, one for the father other for the mother.
And while before the father’s was always the first, since many years couples of newborn babies can choose the order of the surnames.
lugal@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
Is the latter your mother’s first or second last name?
daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
First last name. Example:
Mother: Maria García Perez
Father: Juan Rodríguez Domínguez
Their kids can be named:
Adela García Rodríguez
or
Adela Rodríguez García
Ans once selected and order with the first kid all the kids from the same couple must follow the same order.
lugal@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
So it’s the mother’s father’s name, or the names of both grandfathers. Still patrilineal
dingus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Yeah I’ve always thought it was weird that women are supposed to give up their identity to a man to be married. I’m not really sure why hyphenated names aren’t as popular in the western world or why people don’t occasionally chose to take the woman’s name. I know that women don’t have to change their names, but then often you’ll have the kids as the same name as the father anyway but not the mother. So I’ve heard many women say that they did it so their kids would share their last name.
Hell, I don’t even like my father. But my name is who I am and I like it.
LesserAbe@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Hyphenated names are too long. One of my good friends has one and people just refer to him and his siblings by the initials of their last name, like “Tim MP”
shalafi@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Been divorced twice, neither of them gave much of a shit and never changed their surname back. My wife’s Filipino and was very proud to take my surname. Ran right out and changed all her documents. That was nice!
I’m in the opposite place! Met my dad when I was 20 and he really wanted me to change to his surname. Sorry dad, that would have felt really weird.
lightnsfw@reddthat.com 1 year ago
How do hyphenated names work after the next generation? Seems like that would get out of hand quickly when people with hyphenated last names start having kids with each other.
Default_Defect@midwest.social 1 year ago
“Gifting” kids with absurdly long names isn’t new.
countrypunk@slrpnk.net 1 year ago
The way that I’m gonna do it is whoever has the coolest/most unique last name is the one whose name is adopted. If they’re both equally cool, then hyphenated it is.
varyingExpertise@feddit.org 1 year ago
So, just do what a few couples in my circle of friends did and use her last name after marriage?
dingus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I would think it would be just as weird to collectively switch to matronymic last names as a society. It would make more sense to me if couples just decided which name they liked better and went with that, be it coming from the man or woman. So a more even split of that sort of pattern is what I mean.
varyingExpertise@feddit.org 1 year ago
Yeah, that’s what people do here in Germany.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
It is weird because we as a civilization believe women are persons and corporations are not. And sooner or later, molotovs will be theown in support of this notion, since silence is being interpreted as consent.
Whoops. That was my outside voice.🪀🪀💣🪀
dingus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Sorry I’m not understanding what you mean
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
The reason women take their husband’s name is because they’re property, and rights to their person transfers from their father to their husband.
That’s it.
And right now (at least in the States, maybe in some parts of Europe) there are large far-right movements trying to return society to those days.
Find your crew or your fam, and have them give you your given name. Then choose your surname. Break free.
Lauchmelder@feddit.org 1 year ago
with hyphenated names: what would the children do then? you can’t keep adding more and more names like that (both practically and legally in some cases). serious question because I’ve also thought about that
phcorcoran@lemmy.world 1 year ago
In Canada, you legally pick up to 2 of your parents’ last names for your last name
uis@lemm.ee 1 year ago
In
SovietRussia you pick a last name. Any last name. Except containing numbers, non-letter, more than one hyphen, rank or job title.
LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
My name is Maximus Decimus Arnold Garfield Butcher Smith Hendrickson Meridius, and you shall have my name.
trolololol@lemmy.world 1 year ago
You clearly haven’t met Brazilians
dingus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I think it varies with culture, but from my understanding, usually they take the first name of the two hyphens for their own marriage.
So you have John Doe and Jane Smith. They hyphenate their names as Doe-Smith and the children do as well.
Say they have a daughter Sally Doe-Smith who meets Tim Johnson-Star. So they marry and hyphenate their names as Johnson-Doe.
Yes, in examples like this, it still ends up as getting rid of the maternal aspect of it in the end…but the point is still that both parties are keeping part of and changing another part of their names. It’s not an all or nothing total switch of identity. The lineage is male, but the here and now is an equal compromise of identity.
Rooty@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Unpopular opinion: Patriarchy as defined by feminists is a nebulous and unfalsifiable concept that can be replaced by “the devil” without changing the meaning of the sentence it’s used in.
lugal@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
I donno but this sounds like something the devil would say
shneancy@lemmy.world 1 year ago
you could swap the subject of criticism with “the devil” in any sentence and it would be the same though?
“the devil (covid-19) caused a pandemic”
“the devil (billionaires) is pushing more people into poverty”
“the devil (adhd) is making me procrastinate doing the dishes”
“the devil (you) has really weak criticisms of feminism, since if only he read about it, he’d realise he can see and feel the effects of the patriarchy everywhere. and the way he talks right now makes me believe he only knows the concept from strawman memes”
Rooty@lemmy.world 1 year ago
In these examples you used “the devil” as a placeholder for explainable phenomena with varying causes, none of them being unfalsifiable. Now consider the following sentence:
“The wage gap is causes by the patriarchy” – Surely there are no complex causes being substituted by a nebulous concept here, is it?
shneancy@lemmy.world 1 year ago
the concept is only “nebulous” to people who are talking out of their asses, when they haven’t even bothered to look past the word definition and strawman memes about the patriarchy
man, please, stop making yourself look like a fool, go read about it, it’s really not that hard
spujb@lemmy.cafe 1 year ago
lugal@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
Which feminists are you even referring to exactly? There are different waves of feminism and different strands (like liberal feminism, marxist feminism, black feminism, …). Either you picked a few straw(wo)men who have a shitty definition or you are confused by the variety of definitions and approaches and that confuses you.
spujb@lemmy.cafe 1 year ago
yep and it’s good that opinion stays unpopular