Society is starting to appropriately accommodate neurodivergence, yet stupid/idiot/crazy/lazy etc. stay in the vocabulary.

Submitted ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨oreoreore@lemy.lol⁩ to ⁨showerthoughts@lemmy.world⁩

We have decided some brain quirks are disorders (and get accommodations, as is compassionate), whilst others are flaws (and get slurs). But no one picks their hardware. You cannot earn a better prefrontal cortex or deserve a calmer amygdala. Nor does one get to pick the environment they are born in, which will inform their choices later in life. Even the capacity to “learn better” is a roll of the dice, some brains start the race with sprinting shoes, others with lead weights.

So when we call someone stupid, lazy or insane we are not describing a choice, but simply announcing which kinds of unlucky we’ve decided are worthy of scorn.

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etherphon@piefed.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I get what you’re saying, but it’s quite difficult when people are constantly doing so many stupid, stupid things.

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- Carighan@piefed.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Yeah exactly, the mentioned words like ‘stupid’ or ‘lazy’ aren’t exclusive to describing neurodivergency at all. In fact I’d argue that’s a tiny minority of their use.
  
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  - oreoreore@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    How do you know? How can you be so certain in your judgment, and declare that another’s “stupidity” or “laziness” is not the shadow of a mind wired differently? Can you see the gears turning askew?
    
    What is stupidity to your mind? What is laziness? If they were born stupid, if they were raised without care, would you fault them? When did Gods descent from heavens and bestow you with the wisdom to always do what is right? Why may not all have this privilege?
    
    If you are wrong, if that “laziness” is exhaustion, that “stupidity” a misfiring synapse: then you’re not just cruel, you are part of the problem.
    
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  - etherphon@piefed.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I think in most cases people are using stupid to describe the action or thing a person is doing and not the person themselves, people are doing stupid stuff all the time, it’s both bad and good of course, because often times the stupid things can be delightful as well. I guess it’s just a part of being human but it’s so very frustrating that we rely on some of those people to vote when they have chose to not take life seriously or think about the consequences for other people.
    
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surewhynotlem@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
You can be autistic, ADHD, have some horrible upbringing, have some other genetic thing… you can have any of those things, but you’re still accountable for your actions.

Knowing that someone has those things absolutely helps increase empathy and understanding and assist them with those things.

But a killer is still a killer, even if they did it while suffering with other issues.

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- oreoreore@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Accountability? Yes, accountability is good. It’s proper and necessary to address harmful actions and ensure steps are taken to prevent recurrence. This is entirely possible, and likely more effective, without resorting to insult.
  
  Insults are just punitive justice in a social context: a counterproductive way to discharge outrage rather than foster change. It is to temporarily soothe the egoic zealot lurking within the hearts of all. The research is clear: whether in criminal justice or interpersonal conflict, rehabilitative approaches (clear boundaries, restorative dialogue, support) reduce harm more effectively than punishment alone.
  
  To believe that hate may be remedied with further hate is to mistake fire for water.
  
  pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8196268/
  
  journals.sagepub.com/doi/…/00938548251335322
  
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Fizz@lemmy.nz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
It seems like every single person these days is neurodivergent so I just treat them normal. I guess thats normalising it.

When we call people stupid/lazy we aren’t describing them as a person its usually describing their behaviour or actions in the moment. If an “normal” person doesnt want to get out of bed thats lazy. If an adhd person doesnt want to get out of bed thats still lazy.

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- foggy@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There is genuinely a prevailing theory which basically asserts that the genes that make us neurodivergence are uniquely human, that neurodivergence doesn’t exist in other species, etc.
  
  Sci show did a little video on it the other day. Better info here than what I know, undoubtedly. Sci show is well vetted content. Im some guy laying in his bed avoiding the start of his day.
  
  youtu.be/0mffmUA7d_4
  
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  - Fizz@lemmy.nz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Interesting I’ll check that out. Also I’m some guy laying in bed avoiding the end of my day
    
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  - jafra@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Sry, but afaik there are some flaws with this hypothesis. Neurodivergence is no defined Illness but a catch-all-term for deviations from the norm. The thing with normality is, nobody really wants to be a normalo, and only very little people fit there. Everyone has his deviations. Neurodivergence refers to mental deviations from the (statistical) norm.
    
    Whether you Like it or not, Person A with schizophrenia and Person B with depression only have in common that they both suffer from a ICD-defined Illness. That aside, theres not much in common between the two.
    
    Calling the ability to be mentally ill, a defining trait of humanity is kind of strange. That would make normal people less human?
    
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PiraHxCx@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Ah, first world boredom.

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Iconoclast@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I’m not one to call people names with the intention of hurting their feelings, and I don’t even believe in free will to begin with. But if I were to call someone an idiot, it wouldn’t come from the assumption that they actively choose to be one or that they could choose otherwise. No, they’re helplessly an idiot - and I’m just making a factual statement about the world.

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TrickDacy@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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- oreoreore@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  You state that words like “stupid” or “lazy” are mere descriptors for common traits, and in this, you are correct. But let us be explicit: these words are not neutral. They are not clinical. They are not even accurate. They are judgments masquerading as observations, and their function is not to describe, but to dismiss, belittle and shame.
  
  It is not the existence of laziness or folly that demands scrutiny, it is the impulse to label a human being as such, as though their value hinges on productivity or flawless reasoning. When you call a person “lazy,” you are not documenting a transient state; you are rendering a verdict. A judgment from a throne no higher than theirs. You ignore the depressed individual for whom movement is a Herculean task, the neurodivergent mind locked in executive dysfunction, the exhausted worker crushed beneath systems designed to extract labor without regard for humanity. The word “lazy” does not describe a choice. It erases a context.
  
  Likewise, “stupid” is not a measure of intellect, it is a weapon. It presumes intelligence is a moral achievement, not a confluence of biology, environment, and luck. It assumes that those who fail to meet an arbitrary standard of competence deserve contempt, rather than inquiry. If a machine malfunctions, we do not call it “stupid”; we examine its design. Why, then, do we reserve such charity for objects, and withhold it from people?
  
  The question is NOT whether we should “ban” these words. It is whether we recognize their purpose: to punish, not to understand. Language does not merely reflect reality, it constructs our perception of it. When we default to scorn, we architect a world where struggle is met with derision, where complexity is flattened into moral failure, and where the burden of proof always lies with the accused. This is not how justice works. This is not how compassion works.
  
  Furthermore, if one desires a change in the conduct of one they would deem a fool, has shaming been shown to work? NAY! It has been demonstrated time and time again that shaming yields not the behavior of a distinguished individual but a seething hatred towards those that inflicted the wound. A resentment that easily turns what was once a mere human error into a vitriolic conviction. You may then have no hope of opening this fortress of bitterness to see the harm their actions wrought, indeed they may feel justified in their actions. So as have been done unto them, they will do unto others.
  
  …substack.com/…/laziness-does-not-exist
  
  www.uva.nl/…/guilt-makes-us-more-prosocial.html
  
  researchgate.net/…/216671499_The_longitudinal_lin…
  
  neurosciencenews.com/guilt-shame-behavior-neurosc…
  
  Of course, if your desire is merely to feel good for a moment as you unleash an insult upon another, by all means. But this is not the behavior of a paragon of virtue, rather it is base.
  
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  - TrickDacy@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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- jafra@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I very much like the framing you used here. Words are to communicate about the world and the persons in it. This shouldn’t be made unduely difficult and complicated. Individuals wishing a special treatment don’t have a right to it, people should still try to respect the (handicapped) persons, with the respect comes a willingness to accomodate their wishes (within reason like with everyone else).
  
  An important detail though ist the differenciation between calling someTHING stupid (action or words) and calling someONE stupid.
  
  Every person has their right to be happy and at peace, everyone needs their self esteem (and this includes people with mental handicaps). Calling them stupid is a quality about them as persons. Calling what they said stupid leaves their quality as a person intact, next time they can choose again.
  
  Someone might inform you about a handicap to explain their behaviour, it doesn’t make the shortsighted actions any less shortsighted. But it might help to understand the reasons and limitations of said person.
  
  Actually that ist also put into words how i feel about extreme reactions to someone mislqbeling or misgendering someone else. You can be whatever you like, if it stays reasonable i will accomodate your preferences. If you need me to make a handstand to accomodate your preferences i might choose not to.
  
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snooggums@piefed.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Stupid, idiot, crazy, and lazy(?) have not been used for mental health long enough that their meaning has diverged significantly enough that they are no longer comparable to words like retard.

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ArgumentativeMonotheist@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
You don’t believe in free will, OP? Just curious.

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- oreoreore@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  No.
  
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  - Carighan@piefed.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Why not, if I may ask?
    
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  - ArgumentativeMonotheist@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    That makes sense.
    
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Sleerk@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This is why I try to be mindful of using those words. They’re really stuck in there but I understand that it would be hypocritical of me to call for understanding towards mental health and cognitive issues and then fault people for not having the cognitive capacity I think they “should” have.

I definitely fail frequently because I get angry when people spout total nonsense, even hateful stuff. I try not to let that get the better of me though.

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- warbond@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Unless there’s some Tourette syndrome going on I don’t see why anyone should have to tolerate hateful speech.
  
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  - Sleerk@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    There’s a difference between drawing a boundary and insulting others.
    
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kSPvhmTOlwvMd7Y7E@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Oh look another war on words, surely there is nothing else to focus attention on

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- oreoreore@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  If one values the well-being of people, and if one has time and resources to be on Lemmy, I’d say reflecting upon one’s conduct in the world is a fine way to spend time.
  
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  - remon@ani.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    If one values the well-being of people
    
    Image
    
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mavu@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Yes, of course they stay, because there are stupid, lazy, crazy idiots. need words for them too.

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devolution@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Society is confused and their issue is that lazy stupid and crazy people are using the label neurodivergent to offset their deficiencies, taken away actual help from true neurodivergent people.

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JasonDJ@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
“Retard” has been making a comeback, too, I think.

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- guynamedzero@piefed.zeromedia.vip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Ehhhh, idk about that one, I’ve only heard it in alt-right social circles of high schoolers that I left long ago (I was never really part of the group, but they were the only people I knew). Everyone else I know would kill you if you called someone a “retard”
  
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psx_crab@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Do you really really REALLY want us to sympathise Trump supporter?

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- Voidian@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I don’t think OP is suggesting we sympathize with the ideology or the harm it causes. There is a vital distinction between empathy as an alignment and empathy as a diagnostic tool.
  
  Understanding the cognitive or mental health mechanics that lead to radicalization isn’t about giving someone a ‘pass.’ It’s about having the clarity to see the situation for what it is. If we don’t understand the ‘why’ behind how people are manipulated, we can’t effectively dismantle the systems that recruit them.
  
  True compassion in a political sense isn’t about being ‘nice’ to someone spouting hate; it’s about having the clarity to address the root cause of the behavior rather than just reacting to the symptoms with more hate. It’s possible to hold a boundary against someone’s actions while still being mindful of the human vulnerabilities that landed them there.
  
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ieatpwns@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I’m not looking in their file and saying “ahh yea it says you have the stupid. I guess I’m calling you stupid.”

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LonelySea@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Oh no, some stupidity is definitely a choice and deserves to be called out as such.

Also, I don’t think insane is always used as scorn. Just a description.

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Waveform@multiverse.soulism.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This thread certainly is full of interesting takes.

“People who get called stupid are just the result of the luck of the draw”

“REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE NOOOO I WANNA CALL PEOPLE STUPID HOW DARE YOU BAN WORDS PEOPLE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO BE ASSHOLES”

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Stonewyvvern@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I still suffer from the Dunning Kruger Effect…

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desra@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I hate to say it but those words, especially said by someone else to describe a person they refuse to empathize with, I take it with a grain of salt.

Stupid & insane can mean not by choice and as we’ve seen in the case of politics, it can also be a choice, or more like very stupid and insane decisions.

That said it can also be words used by a shitty society meant to extract as much “value” from everything as possible and sees people as a commodity to be used up and discarded.

So every asshole with a LinkedIn calling people stupid, lazy or insane has me wondering if they’re not the ones who are so unaware they call anything that questions the status quo sTuPiD, or refusing to follow others blindly and just do what their told, LaZy. If those who refuse to participate in this assbackwards “community” we’ve created are iNsAnE.

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Squirrelsdrivemenuts@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Noone calls anyone stupid, lazy or insane in an attempt to accurately describe them. They are all insults used on normal AND neurodivergent people or to describe “bad” behavior.

Also, occasionally I might make a stupid choice. And I know it is harder for me to make the right choice because of how my brain is wired, but it is still objectively the stupid choice and I knowingly show stupid behavior. Although I might have compassion for myself because of my neurodivergence, it doesn’t change the fact that my behavior is stupid.

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- oreoreore@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Oh but there certainly are people who wield every one of those insults against another with the intent to describe the core of their being. The difference between calling someone stupid, and calling someone’s action stupid is a vast one. I am glad you see it, but many do not.
  
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muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Well most people aren’t referring to a mental illness when they say retard yet u can’t say that anymore. Well at least of left wing places like lemmy.

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kittykillinit@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Stupidity is not neurodivergent.

It’s neurotypical.

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cheesorist@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
okay, idiot

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