Computer vibence
Vibe coding takes the "science" out of computer science
Submitted 3 weeks ago by xia@lemmy.sdf.org to showerthoughts@lemmy.world
Comments
spongebue@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I kind of see the relationship between computer science and programming as parallel to the relationship between linguistics and speaking foreign languages. You don’t need to learn linguistics to speak another language—so AI translation isn’t taking the linguistics out of translating because it wasn’t a necessary element to begin with.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
Most programming already didn’t use computer science.
bhamlin@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Yeah, I never needed an AI to write poor, inefficient, and ineffective code. I’ve always had a tremendous personal capacity for that. Why should I give a company money to do something that I’m already good at?
MangoCats@feddit.it 2 weeks ago
Because: for $20 per month to the AI company, you can output poor code much much faster.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
lol, I feel you, but what I’m trying to say is you often don’t need to know concepts like P vs. NP for work other than an extreme baseline “is this gonna take forever if I throw more data at it?” I am not saying it’s not useful, just that for lots of work it’s not always super useful to know. Computer science as a field of study is much more mathy than a lot of fields of dev work. Then again, you’ve got other fields where it’s more important. Like I’m sure folks doing 3d graphics need to know a lot more trigonometry than I do as a backend engineer.
dilroopgill@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
So you dont use programming languages? learning how to use them was like all of computer science’s actual classes? Lets just start with the first class, you dont use classes, vectors, arrays, forloops, while, if else, etc? cout?
DarkDarkHouse@lemmy.sdf.org 2 weeks ago
Computer science is much more than programming. Did you cover other topics like formal logic, finite state machines, computability, crytography, machine learning etc?
JackbyDev@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
When I think about computer science as a field of science I think about things like algorithmic complexity. I believe things like what you mentioned should be taught in general education prior to university (or, like calculus, as an optional elective) and are only covered because you need to know those basics to cover the advanced things.
It’s really difficult to come up with other examples of this that aren’t contrived because computer programming is the only field I know of that’s like this. I might compare it to architects needing to know how to use tools, but I don’t think they actually cover that. Maybe a better example might be engineers needing to know how to use tools before designing machines. Either way, things like how to use tools aren’t covered in those classes and they’re either not taught or taught as shop classes (or maybe they are, I didn’t go into those fields). Things like for loops I view as learning how to make a computer operate. Like how someone who drives a car doesn’t need to know how to fix an engine but a mechanic does. But learning about computer science is more like learning about what car designers do than what mechanics do. A lot of programming work doesn’t need that low level of attention to detail.
Like I said before, it doesn’t hurt, but it’s not super critical. A classic example is something like learning how to make a linked list. This is an early example of an assignment that starts to get into the actual computer science stuff because you start to talk about the comparisons between different data structures, like linked lists versus array lists. So in university you may be thinking “damn I’m gonna be making list implementations all the time” but you quickly learn, no, you’re not. The standard library of your language already has one and it’s worlds better than anything you made. Plus, 99% of the time you’re gonna want an array list, at least in the types of work I do.
I hope that helps make it more clear what I’m trying to say. I’m not saying computer programming is easy or doesn’t require skills.
kibiz0r@midwest.social 3 weeks ago
Funny. I dislike vibe coding because it takes away the “art”.
Implicit in these remarks is the notion that there is something undesirable about an area of human activity that is classified as an “art”; it has to be a Science before it has any real stature. On the other hand, I have been working for more than 12 years on a series of books called “The Art of Computer Programming.”
match@pawb.social 3 weeks ago
it can be both artless and scienceless
Valmond@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Yay! 😰
Witchfire@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I dislike it because it encourages shit code
cryptTurtle@piefed.social 3 weeks ago
I think it depends on who you ask. Some people who "vibe code" definitely use it as a crutch for a lack of understanding. But others (often more senior) tend to use it as just a really really complex auto-complete. Mostly it generates chunks and patterns but the ideas and how those pieces connect come from the dev
Rooskie91@discuss.online 3 weeks ago
I feel like not knowing what you’re doing is a critical piece of the vibe coding definition tho. If a sr developer is using AI, understands the code generated, and can manipulate it in a secure, industry standard way, then that’s just a developer.
cryptTurtle@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
Fair enough. I put it in quotes because honestly I've seen all kinds of definitions thrown around. The conversation seems to often become a substitute for pro-LLM tools and anti-LLM tools. I think it's more about how you use it and who controls it.
NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Vibe coding is shit, and will always be shit no matter who is doing it.
panda_abyss@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Totally disagree. Your position is way too overly simplistic and naive.
An engineer only builds a bridge as strong as it needs to be, and likewise I “vibe code” things based on how few fucks I need to give.
I’m experienced and can review the output for sanity and completion. I can test it, I can rewrite it, etc.
Stop looking at vibe coding as doing the whole thing, it’s more valuable as the glue between things, or to create scripts tools that make you more efficient.
And you can vibe code entire apps that basically just work these days. You probably don’t want to maintain those apps but thats a question of lifecycle planning.
It is so much faster to vibe code an API integration and a suite of tests than I can write. It’s faster to write a functional jq or bash script.
But it’s also much much much worse at doing data viz or writing pandas code because it’s trained on 10,000 shitty medium blogs.
You really have to know what you’re doing and what the model is doing, but it is not universally trash.
And if you don’t believe me, put $20 into the Claude API and install Claude Code and ask it to build something.
iamkindasomeone@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
I’m a computer scientist and work in academia. Programming stuff usually takes like ~10% of my time, while the rest is theory and more like social sciences, i.e. studying human behaviour when working with machines etc. So even if I were to replace all my actual programming with vibe coding, I still would be a computer scientist because to me, coding is just a tool to achieve a bigger purpose. I think sou are more referring to the job of a software dev, which can be someone that studied CS, but not necessarily.
NorthWestWind@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Pfft. Computer Science ain’t about coding
Plebcouncilman@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Since when are programmers the same thing as computer scientists?
possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
People who use AI frequently are the ones who don’t understand the fundamentals.
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Taking the black hat off the AI and putting it where it belongs? That’s crazy talk!
qevlarr@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Code AI is to programming as a microwave is to cooking
seralth@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
[deleted]Lauchmelder@feddit.org 3 weeks ago
correct, but if you’re paying someone to make you a dish you wouldn’t want them to just slap a frozen fish in the microwave and serve it to you. That’s what using AI to build enterprise applications for customers is like.
Ansis100@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Exactly how AI is a useful programming tool when used correctly by a professional.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
No, it doesn’t, because the need for programmers has not changed one single iota.
Vibe Coders do not replace them at any level. They are not computer scientists, they are not engineers, they cannot even program any more than a regular person could (possibly much worse).
Cocopanda@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I’m a comp science web designer. Because of my dyslexia. I never could get hired as a real dev. Ai does a bit of the cleaning up I have trouble with and helps me speed up my development. I appreciate it for that. But you still need to know the code for the programs to work. There is still a need for humans. So far. But for how much longer?
EnsignWashout@startrek.website 3 weeks ago
But for how much longer?
How much longer will we need people who understand how things work?
Valmond@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Well I drive a car and I do know how it works, but I don’t need to.
One day the AI will be a powerful tool for making software, not 100% of all software, but enough to make those cheap stuffs like most websites for example, laying off lots of those people doing it today IMO.
Cocopanda@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
How much longer until the bots are capable of knowing the code better than the developers.
badgermurphy@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
It will take at least until they take a wholly different approach to “AI”. Until they make something that has some concept of what it is saying, you’ll continue to get things much like you get today–a probability-based response that amounts to a series of symbols it thinks are a good reply to the series of symbols you entered. It has no way to validate itself nor even a concept of validation of output, so its validity will always be in question and the complexity of what it can do limited.
zbyte64@awful.systems 3 weeks ago
it’s all computer!
BigBenis@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Meh, I actually know how to code without the help of AI and my knowledge in computer science is minimal. It’s like the difference between being a construction worker and having an engineering degree.
BussyGyatt@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
Computer arts?
DarkSurferZA@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Computer vibing
KiWilly@lemmy.myserv.one 2 weeks ago
Guys hi, just looking for some support share, a Fantasy Adventure Story, for all ages and just some entertain with some storyes: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mVIvQ1wsgg - maybe you are curious
neon_nova@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
People always talk about it in relation to programmers, but what about us non-programmers that have been able to code things only becuase of chatgpt?
I have some python, sysadmin, and computer security knowledge. I actually obtained the security+ cert a few years ago.
I do not work in tech anymore, and chatgpt has helped me so much, by basically coding stuff for me to do random work tasks that I was either unqualified to do or didn;t have the time to do.
HarryOru@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
That’s perfectly fine though. And I say that as a professional dev. The problem is when people assume you can actually build an entire software/service architecture of any complexity just through vibe coding.
Currently LLMs are great for helping me pick out the curtains or even to help me assemble some furniture, but I would NEVER let them build the entire house, if that makes sense.
MangoCats@feddit.it 2 weeks ago
Welcome to CEO handling 101. It’s an art, a very soft skill, and not for the faint of heart. I worked for a mid sized (50 employee) company once where I’d “speak truth to power” in our weekly meeting, get shot down rather enthusiastically by the CEO during the meeting, then after I and the rest of R&D left his office, he’d go out to production and have them start implementing all the concepts of my pitch - as his own ideas, naturally.
neon_nova@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Sure, I get it. Once my business is in a more profitable place I’ll bring someone on to fix up the code, but for now it’s more than enough.
rumba@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
It’s an interesting tool.
It can shave hours off of experienced programmers work if they use it in the right scenarios. You can use it in places where you need to do something that’s mundane but fiddly. It’s suboptimal for crapping out a large project, But it’s super effective at generating a single function or module to do a task. It might even come up with a better idea than you would use for some things. The key is if it does something that’s not quite right or not the best idea You need to be able to read it to understand that it’s going a little off the rails.
If you’re a spreadsheet junkie, It’s capable of writing really really complicated rules without getting lost in the minutia.
For non-developers that don’t know anything it’s a dicer proposition. After a couple thousand lines of code You might start running into interesting problems. When it starts having to go and do problem solving mode, and you’re just feeding it back The errors and asking it to fix the problem You can get bogged down pretty quickly.
For DevOps it’s the diggity bomb. Practically everything in that profession is either a one-off quick emergency script or a well thought out plan of templates.
Here are my five Amazon accounts give me a shell script that goes into every account in every availability zone, enumerate every security group and give me a tool to add remove or replace a given IP with a description and port based on the existence of other IPs descriptions or ports. Or write me an ansible script to install zabix monitoring playbooks with these templates.
MangoCats@feddit.it 2 weeks ago
At least 2/3 of the time I spend with AI coding is getting it to compile without errors - that’s more than a little off the rails, but it’s also much more helpful when you finally do get to a working example that you can look at, instead of beating your own head against the Stack Exchange archives hoping for inspiration, let it try for you.
neon_nova@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
This is what I’m talking about. So many people talk about it in white or black.
I was able to “code” a front end that my contractors can log into to view the files they are authorized to see.
It helped me write so many different things that all work together to solve my problem.
It may or may not be the most efficient code, but in terms of overall business operation, it’s extremely efficient.
MangoCats@feddit.it 2 weeks ago
AI coding is actually a very powerful tool, almost like a light saber. Do you notice how many amputations and artificial limbs there are in that galaxy far far away?
neon_nova@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
That’s pretty funny.
WolfLink@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
It’s a neat tool, but be careful what you do with it. I wouldn’t make anything web-connected or otherwise requiring security considerations, for example.
Asswardbackaddict@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I’m working on a physics project, and my simulator suits my purposes and produces reliable results. And I learned a teeny bit about coding building it.
jaupsinluggies@feddit.uk 3 weeks ago
What’s the largest program, in line count (wc -l will be close enough, or open the file in Notepad++ and scroll to the end), that you’ve created this way?
TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
If you count only 100% vibed code, it’s probably a 20 lines long script.
Usually, I tweak the code to fit my needs, so it’s not 100% vibes at that point. This way, I have built a bunch of scripts, each about 200 lines long, but that arbitrary limit is just my personal preference. I could put them all together into a single horribly unreadable file, which could be like 1000 lines per project. However, vast majority of them were modified by me, so that doesn’t count.
If you ask something longer than 20 lines, there’s a very high probability that it won’t work on the 15th round of corrections. Either GPT just can’t handle things that complicated, or maybe my needs are so obscure and bizarre that the training data just didn’t cover those cases.
neon_nova@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
I just checked and it’s 278.
MangoCats@feddit.it 2 weeks ago
I got one up around 500 lines before it started falling apart when trying to add new features. That was a mix of Rust and HTML, total source file size was around 14kB, with what I might call a “normal amount” of comments in the code.
seralth@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Lauchmelder@feddit.org 3 weeks ago
I’m not bitching about the existence of code agents in general, I’m bitching about the general attitude of “Code Agents will replace programmers” because no the fuck they are not.
They can produce one-off apps and scripts fairly well to the point where non-programmers can solve their problems (great!) but they lack the necessary sophistication and context to build long-lasting, maintainable and scalable applications, which is what you are hiring developers for in the first place
MangoCats@feddit.it 2 weeks ago
I have been doing this stuff for over 40 years, the tools get faster and the ecosystems get more complex.
What would be really nice is a return to simplicity, using the fast tools to make simple stuff fast-squared, but nobody seems to want that.
neon_nova@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
I’m with you on this. The only legit concern I hear is its environmental impact.
But things will become more efficient over time and it had led to increased interest in nuclear energy, so i think it’s a problem that will take care of itself.