How can it be negative? Does the government pay you to use electricity? Or is it just a measure and you just don’t have to pay anything?
European electricity prices tumble into negative territory amid glut of green energy
Submitted 1 year ago by pizzaiolo@slrpnk.net to energy@slrpnk.net
Comments
glorious_albus@lemmy.world 1 year ago
mitchacho74@lemmy.world 1 year ago
No in some cases, they pay you to use power in an attempt to keep the frequency stable. it takes time to ramp up or down power generation so the time where there’s almost too much power, the rate goes negative to attempt to level it out
It’s mainly happening during mid day where people aren’t home and using power and when solar is at its peak
Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de 1 year ago
And this is why it’s insane that we aren’t jumping on the ability to control devices like water heaters, heat pumps, and electric cars so they use power when electricity is cheapest…
We have soooo much energy storage capacity if we’re just a little smart about things.
massive_bereavement@kbin.social 1 year ago
Aceticon@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Sounds like a good opportunity to invest into energy storage.
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 1 year ago
Basically if there is too much power going into the system it can damage transmission equipment. But these negative prices are usually for electricity wholesalers—prices for household consumers don’t usually change much and haven’t ever gone negative to my knowledge.
Decr@lemmy.world 1 year ago
For households it depends on your contract with the energy companies. There are certain contracts which let you pay a fixed fee on top of market prices, but you’ll move with hour by hour fluctuations of the market prices. This might be interesting for those with smart homes who can schedule many of the more energy intensive appliances to run when prices are at expected daily lows. Or because you generally dont use much power in the expensive moments for your region.
These contracts however also remove most of the protection you enjoy from price spikes due to technical failures in the grid, or errors in weather prediction for renewables.
DKKHGGGj@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
For a couple of hours last week I was paid to use electricity. Price of eletricity goes negative fairly often, but only a little. On top of the electricity I, having a spot priced contract, pay a margin ~0.5 € cents/kWh and tax and transmission fee. Last two are about 3 cents /kWh. So for me to get paid the price has to be about -7¢/kWh and that has only ever happened during a few hours.
Ryantific_theory@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Okay, this was more of a read than anticipated. Turns out there are a few systems that can allow negative pricing, at least one in Australia and one in Europe. It has to do with the European electricity exchange bidding process, by which wholesale customers place bids for power usage at specific points in time, which allows power generation to be balanced for usage and stability on both production and consumption sides (without integrated storage, all the energy generated needs to go somewhere). It lets large scale consumers reschedule their consumption to take advantage of when prices are low, and lets producers spin down production when demand is low.
What happens when it turns negative is there’s a sudden increase in production, usually due to solar or wind, sometimes flooding affecting hydroelectric, and the production of electricity is much higher than anticipated. Conventional power stations (especially coal) can take hours to restart after shutting down while costing significant sums of money, so it winds up being cheaper and safer for grid stability to keep less flexible power plants burning and reduce prices until wholesale customers are consuming the extra supply. Which can wind up meaning they’re outright paying people to use electricity.
In addition, Germany will export electricity to their neighbours to stabilize the grid. Ironically, according to the source I found (below), consumers actually wind up paying as part of the renewable energy surcharge that seems to guarantee that renewable energy is purchased at a steady rate regardless of electricity prices. Kind of a weird system, but it incentivizes building out renewable power and maintaining grid stability. Elon may be a tool, but adding battery storage into grids to slurp up excess supply and dispense it when needed is something that is exceedingly useful in getting the most out of renewable generation.
bluGill@kbin.social 1 year ago
Wholesale rates. Someone normally selling is paying. Note that most wholesale power is under a long term contract and so not subject to wholesale prices. Thus overall your power comes from guaranteed price contracts ,but your rates are a bit lower because what the contracted power costs is low.
Thorny_Thicket@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
You still need to pay for transfer and energy tax so even when the price of electricity is zero (or negative) it’s still not free for the end user.
sunbunman@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Here in Australia you get money for feeding energy back into the grid.
cerement@slrpnk.net 1 year ago
tried that for awhile in California then the power companies threw a fit …
penix@reddthat.com 1 year ago
Is that why the women there have skin like leather wallets?
herrvogel@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Negative prices mean the power companies start issuing orders to ramp down production and/or increase consumption. Residential users are generally not involved in all this because there’s not much they can do to help. It’s mostly between the power companies and large industrial plants that use more power in an afternoon than your home does in a year.
Transcendant@lemmy.world 1 year ago
It means the corps selling at the ‘agreed upon prices’ are raking it in. Read further and you’ll find:
“But the negative prices signal an imbalance in the market and could discourage future investment in more energy infrastructure. Adjusting consumption patterns, such as when EV drivers charge their cars, could help smooth out prices.”
Can’t be letting the proles have cheap or free energy now, can we. How else are we supposed to know our place if we’re not scratching in the muck desperately trying to make ends meet?
schroedingershat@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Someone with a coal or nuclear plant pays to keep transmitting power so they don’t have to turn it off.
Some (not great) subsidy schemes for wind also pay out regardless of market prices, but those are less common.
JohnSwanFromTheLough@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Can’t wait to see this reflected in my electricity bill this month…
JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
Is it dynamic billing that charges more or less depending on the grid load?
JohnSwanFromTheLough@lemmy.world 1 year ago
From what I’ve heard the futures are already bought by the energy companies so real time changes won’t funnel down. Like everything, once they have us all paying exorbitant prices they are not going to go back unless the government steps in.
My last bi monthly bill for electricity alone was €270…
Jojo-Mcfrost572@kbin.social 1 year ago
Kinda what society wants and needs yet it's the opposite of what these corporate gluts want.
prole@beehaw.org 1 year ago
This is why capitalism will never allow us to fix climate change. Short term profits are king, who cares if the world exists in 15 years.
platysalty@kbin.social 1 year ago
Wait, this is a good thing, right?
MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 1 year ago
It basicly shows that renewables are able to produce more power then electricity demand at times. That means more electricity storage, flexible demand and a better grid is needed to use the currently wasted electricity. Especially the flexible demand is something a lot of other green technologies provide, like for example heat pumps having kind of built in storage with a hot water tank and evs have batteries anyway.
Basicly good news, but a long way to go.
platysalty@kbin.social 1 year ago
Still, finally. Some actual good news. As little as it may be, it's something. That better than what we see most days.
pizzaiolo@slrpnk.net 1 year ago
Sorta. Without good transmission and storage systems, producers will curtail their production and feel less inclined to invest in renewables since it’ll occasionally generate losses for them
Sir_Osis_of_Liver@kbin.social 1 year ago
That's the problem with private generators feeding into a grid. If this was a co-op, public utility or other form of monopoly, easily idled generators like wind or solar are added or removed as required to balance the grid without consideration for whether particular units are profitable. An idled unit is also not wearing out.
As it is, there are all sorts of additional rules added to ensure that individual sources aren't too heavily penalized when their particular technology isn't profitable, like perfect wind conditions making thermal plants operate at a loss. That puts rates up for everyone.
vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org 1 year ago
Negative prices are a bad sign in this. A good sign would be such a proficite affecting average and median prices, that is, being spread over time.
Such unevenness of production is the main problem with green energy. Except for nuclear, though it can have unexpected surges too, I know it’s a stupid joke.
MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 1 year ago
It does effect electricity prices. For a non nuclear price comparison Germany and Poland are pretty good. Exchange traded price for Germany last June was 94.74€/MWh and Poland was at 118.17€/MWh. Germany has sometimes negative prices due to having significantly more renewables and that lowers prices.
Prices are there to show what infrastructure is necessary. This is basicly a sign for more variable demand and storage. Funnily enough a lot of the technologies currently used to electrify fossil fuels are somewhat variable demand like heat pumps and have some storage ability like evs. We need more green electricity anyway, so this is in no way a bad sign, but just a sign that there is an inbalance in built up between different green technologies. We most certainly need the power.
vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.org 1 year ago
Prices are there to show what infrastructure is necessary. This is basicly a sign for more variable demand and storage.
Yes, that’s what I mean.
ArugulaZ@kbin.social 1 year ago
Oh no! Anyway.
ali@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Hey
cook@discuss.tchncs.de 1 year ago
Even end customers can benefit of it!!! 🤑🤑🤑
Ryantific_theory@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Ooh! Neat. Now do America next.
umad_cause_ibad@lemm.ee 1 year ago
They are focusing on gun power.
pineapplelover@lemm.ee 1 year ago
It’s more been white power
bluGill@kbin.social 1 year ago
It has happened in America too from time to time. I don't think it happens often anymore as there are things they can do to throttle windmills, connect to other grids,.and otherwise predict this. Nobody wins (not even the.consumer in the long run) when this happens so contracts get written to avoid it
NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 1 year ago
Wait not even the customer? How?