stevedidwhat_infosec@infosec.pub 6 months ago
So I have a question I sort of posted in there too but figure I’ll bring the conversation over here (in a more respectful way)
These are called spotters/marksman and they have them at football games, the Olympics, presumably political events, etc. to handle the threat of suicide bombers and other mass-population terrorist threats
How should we handle these threats without police intervention/snipers to quickly take out a bomber?
Looking for civil discourse if at all possible, but I also understand this is a high stakes discussion and directly affects some more than others
The fact you Americans think this is normal for a protest says more then anything I can comment.
A good test is to think of a private entitiy doing this and if that passes the smell test. I don’t think deploying snipers at events has ever saved anyone (correct me if I am missing an incident) and in this case if they are their to protect the students why does the school not hire their own sharpshooters?
You bring up a good point. The prevention part - snipers are seemingly ineffective. The reaction/response portion however, does point to guns being used to prevent further damage. 2016 dallas shooting - police used a bomb to take out the shooter after the fact. LA airport shooting in 2013 - taken down with regular guns.
I think you might be mistaken as to the point of the police being on site. Its not really the job of police to protect (and extra so for protesters). The risk of a terror attack on any large group of people is a weak excuse for this sort of response from police.
Something about those who give up liberty for safety deserve nether…
I sorta agree, but wanted to ask for some clarification - what liberties do you see being given up here? They didn’t really take anything away, they were just there. It’s definitely intimidating, and nobody trusts the police (for good reason, namely lack of appropriate oversight, action, and training) but I can’t see how anything was taken away or given up here for the illusion of saftey that the snipers would hypothetically be providing, know what I mean?
When the bomber intends to die in glory, there is no deterrent possible. Death isn’t any deterrent. It can only be stopped before they get to the scene.
Why won’t anyone answer my question, I know this.
What can be done to prevent
I’m sorry people are being so reactionary and taking your questions as being pro sniper or whatever way they’re taking it. Rational discourse is generally better on Lemmy than other places but is still on the Internet, so people don’t actually give anyone credit for trying to be calm and rational about events like these.
And like, to an extent, I understand the outrage. I do.
But if people can’t act like adults, know they need to simmer down a bit before having these conversations, lemmy is in no way better than Reddit. It’s just a Reddit that’s wider and under the control of more people.
This interaction (while in the original thread my words were flung without frontal lobe usage, and that’s entirely my fault) I had hoped to reset after I had apologized but I guess a lot of people were still upset.
Maybe it was my fault. Idk. All I can do is continue to move forward and do better. Simple as that. Thank you for the empathy, I appreciate it.
The cops are the threat to the protestors.
Are they the only threat? If not, what do we do about the threat, as I asked, and have continued to ask
Oh come now, the point being made is the police ARE THE THREAT. There is no other threat at the level of the armed government goons on site pointing loaded firearms at students. You replied to the answer of your question with “But what about the OTHER threat?” And if you could read just a tiny bit between the lines by the fact that nether you or the person you have replied to have listed another threat (other then general terrorism), maybe you could figure out that there is no threat these police are there to thwart.
How are you gonna put parenthesis around the point that was literally counterpoint to the comment.
They were saying the police were the biggest threat, yet we have repeated terrorist events from regular Americans (not cops as well?)
People died from those incidents. I didn’t even include just injuries or anything like that. Dead. Not pepper spray, not rubber bullets.
Run over.
And eight year old was fucking shot and killed.
To say that police or the only threat to LIFE at these events is just outright disingenuous. period.
There exists real threats that we need to address if we’re ever to pull back our gross reliance on police being some kind of savior figure or whatever bullshit other people believe they are.
All the US needs to do is embrace Peelian principles, but instead it’s a corrupt, power groping free for all.
Do these snipers ever actually intervene ?
Also, the solution is simple : outlaw guns.
I think people do not realize that for large gatherings where violence could break out this is pretty standard.
Most Sports stadiums have them.
I do not think it is wrong to be cautious, or at least have some pieces on the table in case something breaks out.
Which I am sorry to say, could very well happen.
1:5 Americans believe that an act of force is justified. RIght wing or left wing, that could be a terrifying concept if someone motivated by zealous anger to attack a protest they don't fully understand.
The police forces would never give up their guns, though.
I think there might’ve been a miscommunication - I was referring to the threat being suicide bombers and dirty bombs. How do you stop someone from walking into a crowd, pushing a button, and hurting many innocent people trying to peacefully protest?
The cops are literally the ones walking into the crowds hurting the protestors. So you get rid of the cops.
I already asked this but I’m gonna repeat it here for clarity, are cops the only people hurting innocent people at protests?
Charlottesville, Virginia (2017): White supremacist drives car into counter protestors
Minneapolis, Minnesota (2020): Tanker truck drives through a crowd of George Floyd protestors.
Seattle, Washington (2020): Police brutality protest, driver drives through a crowd yet again.
New York City, New York (2017): IED sucide bomber inspired by ISIS in the subway.
Portland, Oregon (2020): Several incidents regarding vehicle usage and other violence against protestors protesting george floyd
Seems not. People are violent and there are threats to peaceful protesters. I am not saying that police snipers are the solution to this threat, and I am not saying cops are innocent, but to try and pretend that the *only *problem is cops, is disingenuous to the innocent people who have died due to hateful people and I’m not going to let you pretend otherwise, knowingly or otherwise.
Say their names. Heather Heyer David McAtee Horace Lorenzo Anderson Jr Summer Taylor Secoriea Turner (8 fucking years old.) Garrett Foster Anthony Huber Joseph Rosenbaum
Folks are being deliberately dense and not answering your question. I replied above, but I’ll add that Sam Harris does tend to address this at length.
I can’t say I’m a fan unfortunately. I didn’t like the majority of his discourse on racial profiling, his fascination with Islam (despite more abrahamic religions being pretty violent and hateful, even if they try to correct w/ new testaments), and especially on his discourse regarding race and intelligence which is pretty classic nazi/skin head shit tbh
They made an earnest effort to get rid of guns in Northern Ireland. How’d that go down?
I’m actually not aware of this, what did happen?
Sensible gun control policies did fuck all to end The Troubles
There was an updated image that clearly shows the barrel of a rifle, so no. These are not for spotting. They are for sniping.
While it’s possible that people shot by guns are bad people, there is very little reason to assume it is likely at a peaceful protest on a University Campus that is ALWAYS crowded. Especially with the current track record of US Police.
My understanding of the original comment was that it was a marksman/spotter. Those are two people who work in tandem to perform a function.
The spotter looks at the larger picture, usually with some kind of binocular or similar, looking for threats and scanning a large area. Their other function is to protect the marksman. So if a threat (or anything really) approaches their position, the marksman can continue to focus on their job, while the spotter defends their position.
The marksman is simply just a sniper. It’s a fancy name for a sniper.
They deploy like this in pretty much every operation. Two man teams. The spotter providing protection and support for the marksman, and the marksman executing the mission.
I feel like people missed that, or maybe I misunderstood the poster? IDK.
Killing people is bad.
A needless inaccurate distinction obscuring what it really is, it is a sniper. It is not normal. These crowds existed before the snipers arrived and will exist long after the protests end.
I’m not trying to obfuscate anything. The job title of a “sniper” is “marksman”.
A marksman is basically a highly accurate Rifleman which is a type of infantry.
This is all military shit.
“Sniper” is just a more commonly used term for a marksman, but they’re exactly the same thing.
The only point to my comment is that you seemed to think that the commenter saying it was a marksman meant it wasn’t a sniper. They’re literally the same job.
Are they also not the students from the school? So they would have been on campus but not all in one place anyway.
Right, I have a feeling that the “spotting” thing and the “not snipers” is the university using some sort of literal definition to dodge the facts that there was a man with a rifle and scope on their roofs.
I don’t agree with it, and as I said in the other threads (or maybe it was here, they’re starting to blur), I don’t think the police are even trained properly enough to handle traffic stops, let alone a rifle at a protest in a university. But I don’t know how to reconcile the, very real threat based on rising tensions, and other terrorist attacks, that someone could walk into one of these protests and hurt a lot of people.
How do we prevent this from happening.
One person suggested that this is a systemic issue, that these attacks (both from outside and from inside from other americans) are solved with better living conditions, better mental health care, better health care period, etc. etc. That happy people don’t do this stuff. But the fact is, that number is falling and very quickly and our only plan (in the states) is apparently to have a fucking sniper on a roof.
This is sickness manifest.
A couple of thoughts.
Yes, these are the same people you see at football games (although they usually are better hidden).
I wonder if they were loaded with live ammo or rubber bullets, either way - yikes.
in this thread we respect laws of physics. you aint sniping anything with a rubber bullet
Good point. Still wonder if live ammo was loaded
Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 months ago
“These threats” what fucking threat?? People protesting? These snipers have never once protected protestors from the violent freaks that show up to run people over or shoot people.
Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 6 months ago
Poignant point
Delphia@lemmy.world 6 months ago
The most likely reasoning is also the saddest.
The tensions about israel/palestine are real. Theres a non zero chance that someone who is very pro-israel and very unhinged might decide the pro-palestinians need shooting. You know how I know this? Because this is an American school, people get shot because someone feels that they need to shoot some people, they dont need a wildly divisive issue to spur them on. One anonymous email talking about how the “terrorist supporters are going to get whats coming to them” and the school/police have to do something. If they do nothing and it does happen everyone will be screaming that “They were warned and did nothing! They wanted this to happen!”
Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 months ago
But you see that’s not what they’re doing, right? Tearing down protest encampments and arresting everyone isn’t protecting them.
Delphia@lemmy.world 6 months ago
They can want the protests to go away (or make them) AND not want to deal with the bad press of failing to at least pretend to protect them on campus. Even if the protest is unauthorised by administration they still dont want " Nothing was done to prevent OSU mass shooting by police or administration" to be a headline.
Both things can be true.
stevedidwhat_infosec@infosec.pub 6 months ago
From my point of view/questioning, it’s the threat of suicide bombers and other terrorist efforts (acid, dirty bombs, driving through a crowd of people) when it comes to protesting middle eastern matters in the states. Hell we have American terrorists doing terrorism here too, how do we better prevent that or are we stuck only responding?
Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 months ago
This is a complete distraction. The only people spilling protestors’ blood on American soil right now are cops. And your response to it is to try to justify why they need intimidation snipers on top of that?? Absolutely not.
TrickDacy@lemmy.world 6 months ago
You did not address what they said and instead made a slew of assumptions about their intent. They actually had a question
stevedidwhat_infosec@infosec.pub 6 months ago
This isn’t even true (we literally just had several parades/protests where a driver DROVE through the fucking crowd), you completely dodge my question, and then in bad faith tried to paint me like I’m some sort of crazy person who thinks intimidation is somehow a good idea.
I’m done with this conversation. I don’t have to tolerate bad faith arguments when I’ve repeatedly shown I want to have civil discourse. Next time, don’t respond if you can’t act like an adult and treat someone who’s trying to improve themselves and act like an adult.
Maalus@lemmy.world 6 months ago
And your response to a credible threat that is solved with the exact same means at other public gatherings, is to not use them, because you feel safe without them? If you apply this way of thinking to other security measures, why would you have a lock at the door? People won’t steal from you (until they actually do because you didn’t have a lock in your door)
Krono@lemmy.today 6 months ago
Actual prevention of terrorism comes by building a just society. People who have basic needs, healthcare, education, and justice do not become terrorists.
And how do you expect a sharpshooter team to stop a suicide bomber, acid attack, or dirty bomb? Even stopping a crowd-driving-maniac would require significant luck. This isn’t an action movie.
stevedidwhat_infosec@infosec.pub 6 months ago
I never made this claim… I was asking the question literally, which you answered and lead with, before going back to say I was implying something else. I’m confused how we ended up here
JustZ@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Yeah, you think all those people on January 6th weren’t having their basic needs met? No, terrorists are not logical people fed up with the system. They’re fanatics and psychopaths, and in Gaza it’s a revered profession. They literally don’t have their basic needs met because they are spending all their money and resources on violent extremism. They’ve been doing it so long their economy depends on it; if they stop killing Jews, they stop getting money from their benefactors in Iran and Qatar. Panislamism, which includes Hamas and its allies, is an ideology of violent repression of non-muslims and infidels, it’s not a freedom movement, it’s MAGA for Islam.
skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 6 months ago
dirty bombs are movie plot threat, bombers, suicide or not are not an issue in usa because alternatives are more easily available. your take sounds weird and disingenuous
stevedidwhat_infosec@infosec.pub 6 months ago
We’ve had several bombings, including suicide bombers in the us. Not everything is pushed into the news cycle by the media state because “it encourages copy cats” or whatever other bullshit they’ll come up with to only report what they want to push.
San Bernardino Attack (2015): 14 people were killed and 22 were seriously injured (mass shooting and attempted bombing)
Boston Marathon Bombing (2013): 3 people killed and injuring several hundred, including 16 who lost limbs. (bombing)
Times Square Car Bomb Attempt (2010): Attempted car bombing, non injured
Nashville Bombing (2020) - Suicide RV Bombing
Your take is ignorant.