Mvlad88@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Person from outside the US here. Please explain me why this is a problem?
In the EU only citizens can vote in national elections, for local elections non-citizens can vote only if they are residents.
With everything he does the issue is the implementation. Deport criminal aliens? I’m all for it, but most of the deportees have no criminal record or they accuse them of crimes as if it’s the same thing as a conviction.
Part of Trump’s grand plan is to make federal elections span only a single day. So maybe you check your status the day before and everything is fine, but the day of voting a glitch in the system says it can’t verify your citizenship. That’s it! No votes for you this year!
Part of Trump’s grand plan is to make federal elections span only a single day.
Don’t see the problem. For years in Italy elections were a one day only events (normally a Sunday) and everything worked fine.
So maybe you check your status the day before and everything is fine, but the day of voting a glitch in the system says it can’t verify your citizenship. That’s it! No votes for you this year!
There are solutions since the system need to be resilient, note that the glitch could be even not “wanted” so while you can think that $HATED_CANDIDATE want to keep his opponents away from the voting, in the same way $HATED_CANDIDATE want to make sure that his supporters can vote.
Deport criminal aliens? I’m all for it, but most of the deportees have no criminal record or they accuse them of crimes as if it’s the same thing as a conviction.
Illegal immigration is a crime.
Actually it’s a civil offense akin to a parking ticket which is separate from criminal charges.
It’s not a problem. It’s fair to assume anything the Trump administration does is nefarious.
You already can’t vote if you’re not a citizen. There are voter rolls and you get checked off when you go vote.
This almost certainly will be used to deport people without going through due process.
What happens if someone is illegitimately removed from this database? How can you show whether it was a glitch, or deliberate? How do you know if the information they have about you is even right, or get it changed if you need to? Where’s the accountability?
See the UK Post Office accounting scandal, in which a persistent computer error went unfixed for decades and caused hundreds of post office employees to be fired and dragged through courts for corruption that never happened. A good chunk of them committed suicide. The government and the software company both knew about the bug causing the issue, too, but prosecutions continued. “If the computer says it, it must be right”, sort of danger.
What happens if someone is illegitimately removed from this database?
That the someone cannot vote. But you can design system resilient to this.
How can you show whether it was a glitch, or deliberate?
Paper trail.
How do you know if the information they have about you is even right, or get it changed if you need to?
You check it. I mean, when I ask for a document I expect to receive it. And I check if it is correct, after all human error can happen anyway.
Where’s the accountability?
Every document from the state (any level) I have has a signature that indicate who is ultimately accountable for it.
What happens if someone is illegitimately removed from this database? How can you show whether it was a glitch, or deliberate? How do you know if the information they have about you is even right, or get it changed if you need to? Where’s the accountability?
Database logs and procedural logs is how you know.
If you move state etc you would update your details with the government, just like you already should be doing.
“illegitimately” is the key word there. I’m not interested in what you think happens if everything is working as intended, or your poor reading comprehension. F-, rewrite your answer and address the question or you’ll fail the class and be held back a grade.
“illegitimately” is the key word there. I’m not interested in what you think happens if everything is working as intended, or your poor reading comprehension
Oh the irony. Database and procedural logs are automatic and extensive, that’s why I mentioned them. No amount of “illegitimate” actions would sidestep them. Go back to school.
See the UK Post Office accounting scandal, in which a persistent computer error went unfixed for decades and caused hundreds of post office employees to be fired and dragged through courts for corruption that never happened. A good chunk of them committed suicide.
The database is the least important part of the system: the organizational structure, rules, and procedures are way more important, because they actively help or harm people.
That’s a really weird way of looking at it. Without the database, there’s no central ledger to consult as to whether or not you’re legally a person. Like @atrielienz@lemmy.world said:
The database is the backbone of them being able to hurt or harm
Without that starting point, “the organizational structure, rules, and procedures” that rely on the data from the database are impotent.
That’s a really weird way of looking at it.
That’s how I roll.
Without the database, there’s no central ledger to consult as to whether or not you’re legally a person.
We’re already seeing them do that without a database. 🤷♂️
Other countries are able to maintain internal databases without using them to screw over their own citizens (except when they do). The problem isn’t the database.
The database is the backbone of them being able to hurt or harm so I’d say it’s pretty important. Here’s the other problem though. The federal government under Trump is having a really difficult time protecting the personal identifiable information of the citizens. Not only have they allowed private companies to access that data (palantir etc), but they are also having a lot of difficulties with cyber attacks. Part of the reason those cyber attacks haven’t been as effective as they could be is because the data isn’t localized in one place. Now that’s exactly what they’re trying to do with this.
Same fucking way americans correct issues with SSA, DHS, and the IRS: paperwork. Come the fuck on with this slippery slope bullshit. Ever had a job? The I-9 employment authorization paperwork… just shut up
Looking for ways the system can be abused and addressing those loopholes is basic risk assessment, so
just shut up
I strongly suggest taking a heaping helping of your own advice, mate.
Slippery slope? It’s literally been done. Voter roles purged too close to an election to be able to vote. The complaint here is that this database makes it too easy to do what they’ve already done a bunch of times.
You can be snarky, or you can be ignorant. It’s a bad look to be both.
Yes I think you missed the point.
If you are purged you can’t vote. That becomes a problem on election day.
You might get a feel-good provisional ballot but no real way to track that it got counted.
This is what happened last year, except by a bunch of randos claiming that so-and-so wasn’t a legal voter, with no proof or recourse.
So now they can just check against RNC registered voters and “disable” 10% of people who aren’t registered RNC and no way to prove or possibly even know until after the election passes.
No thanks.
It’s fascinating to see this find new pastures in the new world. As a proud Russian citizen.
Some day you’ll remember with nostalgie those years of the ruling party actually caring to win elections.
Jokes aside, it’s easier to cheat now because it’s easier to do everything, and that’s because of the Internet and modern computing systems.
You can’t unmince minced meat back.
But you can apply the same change in a different direction and see that today direct non-anonymous democracy is actually plausible, if it’s instituted, for big countries. 100 years ago it simply wasn’t possible. Now it is.
Or that today Soviet system (as in Soviet democracy and not totalitarian state capitalism) is actually possible to build now. When they were trying, they couldn’t, they didn’t possess the means.
And that both these things are actually what these people have done to us, but inverted. Our “direct vote” is the data they collect about us to classify and predict us for control. Our “Soviets” are that classification, and our “central planning” is those predictions and control.
They’ve done all this, just directed for their own interest. So maybe one can do the opposite.
The US is generally the same where some local elections allow non-citizen residents to vote for local issues.
The issue with this is was not created publicly. We don’t know what kind of data is being uses to determine someone’s status. If someone is private enough to not have any data collected by its source, then they could be denied voting rights despite being legally able to vote.
It also could end up bring used as the sole source for verifying someone’s status, despite having documents to prove otherwise.
I would imagine it’s based on social security numbers.
So it’s credit score based?
The ONLY People who Are WORRIED about This are STUPID LIBRULS trying to ILLEGALLY Vote! Everyone else is TOTALLY Fine with this because there’s NO WAY a Database like This can be Misused by a Government Deporting LEGAL CITIZENS and trying to Make GAY AND TRANS PEOPLE ILLEGAL!
I think in most cases where this administration seems to have a good idea it’s important to remember that it’s likely designed to keep them in power.
A national database that the trump admin controls will 100% be exploited for their own gain, just like every other aspect of government is being exploited for their gain now.
A national database that the trump admin controls will 100% be exploited for their own gain
You mean, weaponized.
A national database that the trump admin controls
But if/when the Democrats win it will be under their “control”.
Every region in the world has its way of doing things. When new layers of control are added, it makes some people nervous.
When the new controls are perhaps mismanaged and corrupt, promising to do more than advertised, it makes some people angry. Especially during an increase of lawlessness and corruption of the central government. Especially when it uses the same messaging which has already harmed many
Because they want to use the data for more nefarious purposes to displace non-white American voters.
FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 9 months ago
Also outside the US, and the “problem” is that people - pretty much exclusively democrat voters - want illegal immigrants to be able to vote, or at least don’t want their illegal votes to not be counted, because they overwhelmingly vote Democrat since the Democrats are the ones importing them and giving them freebies.
Lemminary@lemmy.world 9 months ago
And I’m here to believe that my MAGA Latino relatives living in the US are the exception to the rule? 😂 What about my extended family? And their friends and families? And theirs in turn?
What the Democrats want is to run local elections for local issues, and have the people affected vote because it affects them directly. Or what, did you get confused and are talking about the primaries?
FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 9 months ago
So you’re admitting the democrats want illegals to vote in elections?
Lemminary@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Democrats? 😂 Buddy, this is a bipartisan event. If the city counsel decides what to do with the initiatives, why are you blaming the Dems? That the democrats are fine with that speaks to compassion for small issues that changes lives.
I hope you realize this doesn’t mean electing officials.
Limonene@lemmy.world 9 months ago
Your post is blatant disinformation. Undocumented immigrants overwhelmingly vote not at all. Voting illegally in the US is difficult, and often prosecuted.
I live in the US. Most of the people I know are Democrat-aligned. None of them want undocumented immigrants to vote. None of them import undocumented immigrants.
FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au 9 months ago
Doubt.