How long you spent in that shower?
They say in an infinite multiverse versions of you exist. Yet there's an infinity of fractional numbers between 1 and 2 with no whole number 3 between, so infinity can exist without every possibility.
Submitted 10 months ago by rscky1@lemmy.world to showerthoughts@lemmy.world
Comments
wesker@lemmy.sdf.org 10 months ago
mumblerfish@lemmy.world 10 months ago
I usually say “There are an infinite number of integers. That does not mean that one of them is a banana”.
RavenFellBlade@startrek.website 10 months ago
The mind-bending thing about it is thus: there are an infinite multitude of “you” throughout the multiverse expressing every “you” that could, or even could not, be. However, there are infinitely more realities with no “you” at all. The set of infinities containing an expression of “you” is necessarily smaller than the set of infinities that do not contain an expression of “you” simply owing to the very narrow nature of eventualities required to express “you” into existence. In point of fact, that set if infinitesimal labeled “you” is infinitesimal in comparison to the set labeled “not you”, and yet still uncountable in its infinity.
my_hat_stinks@programming.dev 10 months ago
I’m not sure how sound that reasoning is, it’s difficult to use intuition to determine whether one infinite set is bigger than another. Infinity is weird.
Say for instance you have two infinite sets: a set of all positive integers (1, 2, 3…) and a set of all positive multiples of 5 (5, 10, 15…). Intuitively you might assume the first set is bigger, after all it has five times as many values, right? But that’s not actually the case, both sets are actually exactly the same size. If you take the first set and multiply every value by 5 you have the second set, no need to add or remove any values. Likewise, dividing every value in the second set gives you the first set again. There is no value in one set that can’t be directly mapped to a unique value in the other, therefore both sets must be the same size. Pick any random number and it’s 5 times as likely to be in the first set than the second, but there are not 5 times as many values in the first set.
With infinitely many universes one particular state being a few times more or less likely doesn’t necessarily matter, there can still be as many universes with you as without.
RavenFellBlade@startrek.website 10 months ago
The ultimate conceit is that infinities are a wonderfully engaging concept, but truly comprehending them as a tangible thing is inherently futile. We want to make these comparisons. They do, in some ways, hold some kind of meaningful as a concept, because we like one thing to be bigger or better than the other. But, at the scale of infinity, these comparisons are arbitrary and largely meaningless in any practical way.
esc27@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Don’t worry, in one of those realities, odds are one of the me’s developed a multiversal bomb that destroyed all the realities other than ours.
brygphilomena@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Where it gets strange is that there are actually an equal number of multiverse that have a version of you as there are that do not contain a version of you.
For the sake of simple math, let’s assume that there are an infinite number of multiverses and that the amount of those which contain a version of you is 1/10th.
So let’s take the amount of multiverses and divide them by ten. What do we get? Infinity.
It’s like trying to say there are fewer rational numbers between 1 and 2 than there are between 2 and 10. The number is always infinite.
platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 10 months ago
No, there are some infinities bigger than other infinities. I know it sounds dumb, but this has been mathematically demonstrated. All infinities aren’t the same size, basically.
The set of rational numbers is larger than the set of integer numbers, even though they are both infinite.
pozbo@lemmy.world 10 months ago
OP discovers countable infinity
CrayonRosary@lemmy.world 10 months ago
That’s not at all what they’re saying. They’re saying that 3 is not between 1 and 2. They could have also have said there’s a continuum of real numbers between 1 and 2 but none of them are 3.
pozbo@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Maybe the real 3 was the friends we made along the way?
stingpie@lemmy.world 10 months ago
There’s an uncountably infinite range of numbers between 1 & 2. OP is still wrong though. If you existing has some non-zero probability, there must be an infinite number of you, since any positive number multiplied by infinity is infinity.
CrayonRosary@lemmy.world 10 months ago
OP didn’t say there are not an infinite number of you. They said 3 isn’t between 1 and 2, therefore infinite sets don’t necessarily contain every value.
Mango@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Jerry there’s an infinite number of you and all of them are losers.
TwilightVulpine@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Some people are so petty or have such bad self-esteem that they will contemplate the infinite only as a means to put someone else/themselves down
givesomefucks@lemmy.world 10 months ago
“They” don’t have any proof.
The person most qualified to speak on this is Sir Roger Penrose, and he believes quantum wave collapse is caused by gravity, and rather than happening faster than the speed of light it’s actually reversing time and happening in the past.
That “prunes” the multiverse leaving us with one prime timeline. So the multiverse would only exist for fractions of a second before collapsing back into one retroactively before it even existed.
And I can only assume the writers of Loki knows about him and that’s why it sounds like I’m just explaining the MCU.
Seriously, Penrose is basically the Einstein of this generation. He finished up a lot of Einstein’s work, and has spent the last couple decades looking into this and what consciousness actually is. If it sounds like science fiction, is because writers would take the five minutes to read what the world’s smartest physicist thinks.
If it sounds confusing, it’s because the only thing in the universe that requires linear time in one direction is consciousness. So we only experience time like that. Everything else really doesn’t give a shit about time, especially at the quantum level.
bendak@lemmy.world 10 months ago
the only thing in the universe that requires linear time in one direction is consciousness. So we only experience time like that. Everything else really doesn’t give a shit about time
Is that really true? I feel like a lot of things thay are not consciousness still have causal relationships.
A simple example is combustion. It needs fuel and an ignition. It produces light and heat that transfer energy to its environment. This couldn’t work in reverse or independent of time.
givesomefucks@lemmy.world 10 months ago
This couldn’t work in reverse or independent of time.
No, we can’t make it happen in reverse in the perception of time we need to have consciousness.
It’s not that everything has to confirm to how we experience it. It’s that we can only observe things in the way we can experience it.
Now, while Penrose finished up Einsteins work on relativity, I get most people do t know who he is.
But even Einstein himself disagreed with you before Penrose finished it.
Einstein’s statement was not merely an attempt at consolation. Many physicists argue that Einstein’s position is implied by the two pillars of modern physics: Einstein’s masterpiece, the general theory of relativity, and the Standard Model of particle physics. The laws that underlie these theories are time-symmetric — that is, the physics they describe is the same, regardless of whether the variable called “time” increases or decreases. Moreover, they say nothing at all about the point we call “now” — a special moment (or so it appears) for us, but seemingly undefined when we talk about the universe at large. The resulting timeless cosmos is sometimes called a “block universe” — a static block of space-time in which any flow of time, or passage through it, must presumably be a mental construct or other illusion.
quantamagazine.org/a-debate-over-the-physics-of-t…
Serious, if you’re saying time is constant and can only flow in one direction, you’re arguing with the literal foundation physics is built on.
Time just isn’t a necessity for anything except consciousness.
This is crazy complicated though, and I’m not even going to pretend to understand all of it. So it’s hard to explain. I’d suggest a lot of reading if you want to know more rather than me try to summarize.
But yes, if you do the actual physics of something being set on fire, the equation works just fine both ways
Instead of saying it can only work one way, it’s more accurate to say a consciousness can only experience it one way. Which might not even be technically true.
A self contained universe with fixed energy and infite time will eventually see a pile of ash turned into an apple. And it wouldn’t violate a damn thing with our system of physics.
Bloodyhog@lemmy.world 10 months ago
gum_dragon@lemm.ee 10 months ago
Well, there’s this trolley situation that keeps coming up…
gregorum@lemm.ee 10 months ago
if there are an infinite amount of multiverses, logically, there must be many in which you do not exist.
usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 10 months ago
Not necessarily. You could be the one constant throughout them all for whatever reason and it wouldn’t put any damper on there being an infinite number of universes. That’s the whole point of OPs example; infinity can still be bound by limits.
gregorum@lemm.ee 10 months ago
That’s the whole point of OPs example; infinity can still be bound by limits.
such as there being no constants?
db2@lemmy.world 10 months ago
And at least one where this post wasn’t made.
gregorum@lemm.ee 10 months ago
quantum humor. cute.
Sabata11792@kbin.social 10 months ago
Those are the lucky universes.
schmidtster@lemmy.world 10 months ago
In another universe 2 would be 3 so 3 would be between 1 and 2.
Not thinking infinite enough.
xigoi@lemmy.sdf.org 10 months ago
No. Mathematical facts hold independently of any universe.
schmidtster@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Your realize the numbers are arbitrary and every universe will have different terms phrases and orders for these “numbers” yeah?
Jentu@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 months ago
But what makes the infinite versions of you bound to a range of 1-2 rather than infinity itself?
If “>2 and <1” in this scenario are dimensions where you don’t exist, wouldn’t the range of 1-2 cover every possibility of who you could be?
usualsuspect191@lemmy.ca 10 months ago
No, that’s the point. The numbers between one and two are infinite; there’s no “infinity itself”. You can have infinite possibilities without having “every” possibility. There are infinitely many things that could be excluded from infinite universes, and there’d still be infinite universes just the same.
vexikron@lemmy.zip 10 months ago
For something to be a possible universe vs an impossible universe, we would be talking about possible laws of physics that do and do not allow for a universe to exist.
That would be the constraints to an infinite set of possible universes.
The fact that there exist an infinity of fractions between one and two is irrelevant and has no bearing on this at all.
There are absolutely not an infinite number of things that could be excluded from the set of infinite possible universes.
Gravity, for example. Last I checked, it was posited that a universe could possibly exist without the Weak Nuclear Force, but I have never heard of a possible universe that could exist without the Strong Nuclear Force or Electromagnetism.
ShaunaTheDead@kbin.social 10 months ago
You're assuming that physics would be the same in every other universe. Physics works the way it does in our universe largely because of constants, but we don't know why many of these constants exist and we probably never will. The idea of a god creating out universe seems like an obvious explanation, but more likely it's survivor bias. Specifically, the idea that since we happen to live in a universe where everything is just right and so we look at that as a miracle and probably planned. In reality, it's more likely that there are actually an infinite number of universes with different physics where life is impossible, but that means that even if less than 1% of all of those infinite universes is unable to support life, there are still so, so many universes in which it was. Many of them being nearly identical to our own, and many of them being so strange and alien that we probably couldn't even wrap our heads around the strangeness even if we had an eternity to study them.
lseif@sopuli.xyz 10 months ago
basically, imagine an infinite amount of universes which are identical to this one. now say every second one has one thing changed about it. theres still infinite universes, but only 2 possibilities.
Redfox8@feddit.uk 10 months ago
I can’t buy into the idea of multiverses. Sure there’s an infinite possible variants but not an actual infinite number of co-existing possibilities. At what point us it decided that another varient is created? Also try tying that into the theory that there’s no actual thing as free will due to predetermined particle interactions.
douglasg14b@lemmy.world 10 months ago
You can’t buy the idea of it because you don’t understand the theories around it?
That’s an odd stance.
Would it not be better to respect and explore the idea instead of trying to dismis is through ignorance?
Redfox8@feddit.uk 10 months ago
Why do you think that I’m being willfully ignorant and not trying to learn? (Maybe using the phrase ‘cant buy’ is too informal/misleading). Can we not learn through discussion of our beleifs/understandings/theories etc? I have stated why I don’t think there are infinite coexisting universes, discuss or not as you please.
Also, disrespectful? What on earth are you talking about? How have I been disrespectful to anyone?
foggy@lemmy.world 10 months ago
There are different kinds of infinity.
db2@lemmy.world 10 months ago
And if infinite possibilities exist then there must be a universe in which all other universe are a carbon copy of that one and not at the same time. It can be expanded well past the absurd.
almar_quigley@lemmy.world 10 months ago
An oldie but goodie! youtu.be/SrU9YDoXE88?si=FAQVuiMLnzXZnQiK
lolcatnip@reddthat.com 10 months ago
Reasoning about infinite things is hard and most people are bad at it.
vexikron@lemmy.zip 10 months ago
This does not make any sense.
If there are an infinite number of fractions between 1 and 2, all you are doing is naming a set of universes with a constricted naming convention, and the set of universes is still infinite, thus contains any possible universe including an infinite number with an exact replica of you, an infinite number with a slightly different version of you, and an infinite number where you do not exist.
Just because constrained infinities of certain kinds of numbers can be nested within other infinities of unconstrained, or less constrained infinities of universes does not mean that somehow this has applications to multiverse theory.
If the given assumption is ‘there are an infinite number of alternate universes’ then the fact that fractions between 1 and 2 are an infinite set has literally no logical ability to mandate that this would somehow constrain the nature of previously established infinity of universes.
The possibilities of an infinite set of universes would be ultimately constrained by all possible sets of the laws of physics that allow any kind of universe to exist.
We already know that we live in a universe where humans exist, so, again, there will thus be an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of variations of you exist, and and infinite number where you do not exist.
ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 10 months ago
The point is that people tend to claim the opposite, that an infinite amount of universes means everything and anything is happening in some universe somewhere. Which can’t be true, as a universe where someone creates some device that destroys all universes does not exist (as proven by our own existence).
Therefore it follows that there must be some constraints, though what those constraints actually are is obviously a very difficult problem.
The “infinite fractions between 1 and 2 which are not 3” is an example that shows that infinite =/= everything.
vexikron@lemmy.zip 10 months ago
I agree with you up to the last sentence.
I would say it is an analogy that is clumsy at best, and definitely not proof of anything about possible or impossible universes, as the OP presented it.
jasondj@ttrpg.network 10 months ago
You made me realize that we always think of infinity as an immensely large number, but it can be an immensely small number (0.0(infinite)1).
So thanks for making me realize infinity stretches in both the inifinitely large and the infinitely small. Wasn’t expecting to get a ride on the total perspective vortex from showerthoughts today.
SmoothLiquidation@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Very good, what you described is called an Infinitesimal, and it is a building block of Calculus.
CrayonRosary@lemmy.world 10 months ago
I feel like you’ve completely missed the point. I feel like OP is implying that just because there are infinite universes, it doesn’t mean you’re the leader of the world in any of them. Not all things are possible, even with an infinite number of universes.
alehc@slrpnk.net 10 months ago
This doesn’t make sense. OP just provided an example of “infinite universes” that even tho they are infinite, they do not contain all possibilities. Because we can’t see all universes at the same time, we cannot know if they have any constraints at all. For instance, all universes might only have me being born in some odd day for some weird reason for all we know.
TheGalacticVoid@lemm.ee 10 months ago
OP assumes that the multiverse has constraints. The person you replied to is saying that OP is wrong because we don’t know whether the multiverse has constraints, so OP is wrong.
PerilousMare@lemmy.world 10 months ago
As you said, existence is constrained by laws of physics of this universe and by potentially different laws/constraints in other universes that we can’t possibly know. Because we lack the ability to observe the infinite expanse of universes as a whole, we can’t know what the constraints are (if any) so we can only understand them as infinite possibilities without constraints, but this doesn’t mean that there are not constraints that we’re just incapable of observing, and I feel like this was OPs point with this post. We don’t know what we don’t know.
faintwhenfree@lemmus.org 10 months ago
I was going to post more or less similar rant, but hey thanks for doing it. I second this @OP you hear this? This post just sounds like you don’t understand infinity that well.