Submitted ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Wander@packmates.org⁩ to ⁨selfhosted@lemmy.world⁩

The future of #selfhosted services is going to be... Android?

Wait, what?

Think about it. At some point in there lives everyone has an old phone. They are designed to be constantly connected, constantly on... and even have a battery and potentially still a SIM card to survive power outages.

We just need to make it easy to create APK packaged servers that can avoid battery-optimization kills and automatically configure an outbound tunnel like ngrok, zerotrust, etc...

The goal: hosting services like #nextcloud, #syncthing, #mastodon!? should be as easy as installing an APK and leaving an old phone connected to a spare charger / outlet.

It would be tempting to have an optimized ROM, but if self-hosting is meant to become more commonplace, installing an APK should be all that's needed. #Android can do SSH, VPN and other tunnels without the need for root, so there should be no problem in using tunnels to publicly expose a phone/server in a secure manner.

PS. syncthing actually already has an APK and is easy to use. Although I had to sort out some battery optimization stuff, it's a good example of what should become much more commonplace.

cc: @selfhosted

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RegalPotoo@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Running web services on a device that hasn’t seen a security patch in 3 years seems like a bad idea.

Also, unless you can mount a real hard drive, you are going to very quickly run into I/O bandwidth issues and flash longevity limits

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- Wander@packmates.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  @RegalPotoo Maybe I should have been more specific in the wording of my title.
  No one planning on hosting public multi-user service that would see some serious traffic would probably benefit from hosting on a phone.
  Someone who wants to simply run a single-user instance or their personal nextcloud? I think that's a real possibility.
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  - RegalPotoo@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    It’s a really cool idea, and the internet would probably be a better place if more people took ownership of their infrastructure rather than relying on ad-supported “free” services, and it’s easy to criticise an approach that I’ve spent maybe 10 minutes actually thinking about - I’ve got my reservations, but if you can make it work it would be awesome
    
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  - knF@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    It is possible nowadays: I’m hosting quite a few services on an 5 years old Android. Just with Termux, no root required. Of course connectef it’s just to the internal network due to all the security concerns mentioned in the post.
    
    To solve all the bandwidth/connection issues, I’ve bought a usbc-ethernet dongle that works like a charm.
    
    To mitigate battery issues I’ve limited the charging to 85%.
    
    I would never host Jellyfin there, but with webdav and Kodi I can get my media served easily to all my devices at home
    
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- otter@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I’d also be worried about battery issues
  
  Don’t want to find it having overheated / turned into a pufferfish
  
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  - chiisana@lemmy.chiisana.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Future news headline: “The web server literally exploded under the DDOS attack.”
    
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southsamurai@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I mean, android is fine I guess, but it’s being pushed to be less and less able to be separated from Google. I think for a lot of people interested in self hosting, there’s a low amount of interest in it because of that.

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MigratingtoLemmy@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Upvoted, but I feel horrified by the notion. I’d much rather have a headless server

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- Wander@packmates.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  @MigratingtoLemmy use a hammer to break the screen, control via adb :vlpn_happy_blep:
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  - Omniraptor@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Wait are you messaging from mastodon?? Is that why the emoji won’t render
    
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onlinepersona@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
IMO, more like Linux. Android for such old devices is unmaintained, but if you’re able to run Linux on it you’ll still be able to apply kernel updates and security updates for software will continue to exist. Many things are opensource too and you should be able to recompile them on the android device to make it run.

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- BearOfaTime@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Seems like this is a great use-case for an RPi. At least for single/few user setups
  
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- AbidanYre@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  PostMarketOS or UBPorts are basically that, but have limited functionality and few hardware options.
  
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bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I feel like Android is adding some new power saving “feature” with every version to kill all the useful stuff I want to keep running in the background.

Last stupid thing I remember was when it removed my CalDAV synchronisation because I haven’t been “using” the CalDAV app for some months.

Not to mention all the times it decides to kill something you want to use because it thinks the RAM would be more needed elsewhere. Honestly my 128 MB RAM Nokia N900 could run more apps at the same time than my 4 GB RAM Fairphone.

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- Buddahriffic@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Yeah, android is a lot like Windows in that they make choices that might benefit users who don’t know what’s going on but interrupts or harms things power users are doing. They are just better at not being as annoying with it and don’t beg people to use their default programs.
  
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- trolololol@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  You’re right, that’s a feature if you’re a regular phone user and a bug if you want it as a server.
  
  Also, even if the application is still running you can have the os almost fully shutdown even if it’s charging. Again, it’s a behavior tuned for a typical user.
  
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- TeaEarlGrayHot@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Thanks for the monthly reminder to open DavX5 🤣
  
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awooo@pawb.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Hmm I think my main concern would be lack of kernel/firmware updates, running something like postmarketOS could partly solve that and still be nearly as easy to set up (just unlock and flash a prebuilt image)

But firmware is still almost entirely dependent on the vendor, since it’s all signed and unpatchable.

Next issue would be lack of connectivity on a lot of phones, which have gone backwards and include USB 2.0 now. WiFi is an option, but less stable, I personally decided to just go 100Mbps and suffer.

As for the battery, it would help a lot if phones were designed to boot without one and they were removable, it all worked well for about half a year until I found out I had a spicy pillow and had to replace it with direct power to the board, which made the whole setup much less elegant and required soldering.

It all comes down to how devices are designed in the end. If someone took the time to make a computer instead of just a phone, and included features that make it useful past its initial life that aren’t that popular (display output, microsd, headphone jack), mainlined all the drivers and maintained firmware, that would be a different story.

But that’s not a very profitable model, because it’s all about reducing waste and thus selling less. A lot needs to change.

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PieMePlenty@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Android? No. It’s not made for it. You are using a hammer to paint a wall.

Phones? With a different Linux based distro? I can see it happening. For a small niche at least.

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Moonrise2473@feddit.it ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Big problem: updates for something that is directly exposed to internet

Some low end devices will stop getting security updates 6 months after launch because the OEM launches a new model every two weeks and obviously doesn’t have resources to dedicate to it

In some cases, even high end devices don’t get updates and are discontinued internally shortly after launch, for example the Xiaomi mix 3 5g

Yes, root and custom ROMs could solve the problem, but not as easy as regular Linux where you just use a package manager to update. First issue is needing to wipe after updates and you have to reinstall and reconfigure everything

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benjohn@todon.nl ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
@Wander @selfhosted this whole “We are walking about with entirely reasonable servers in our pockets for reasonable scales - why doesn’t it feel like that?” thing is in my brain quite a bit.
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- Wander@packmates.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  @benjohn @selfhosted 6-8 GB of RAM with powerful CPU and GPU that was designed to run games and can in some cases run small AI models is nothing to scoff at imho.
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- benjohn@todon.nl ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  @Wander @selfhosted I have conversations with peers where they talk about “servers” and “computers” as if they figure them as quite distinct things.
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MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Pretty cool concept actually. upcycling old tech does seem to be a selfhosting hobby. I see a lot of criticism that I think doesn’t really see the value proposition. You should be able to root the device and install a new OS. I wonder how limited the bandwidth would be though, and whether it’d be worth the cost to get adapters, if they exist, to allow more throughput. I do like the concept though.

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- elscallr@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  If I’m just using them as a glorified small Linux box it could work pretty well. If you’re going to host services that don’t require a ton of bandwidth you don’t need a hard line or anything. Hell my Plex server is using WiFi (802.11ax but still) and it delivers 4K just fine.
  
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  - MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Shit, I run plex of my synology ds1621+ and it chokes on 4k regularly. This is with a cabled connection. It’s almost certainly the CPU though. These things are weak as hell. What’re you running plex on ?
    
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CarbonatedPastaSauce@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
The future? No. A useful niche? Sure.

I run 4 mail servers, 2 game servers, 3 directory/auth servers, a firewall/router, a NAS, a security system server, a media server, a monitoring server, and a couple others. Android ain’t gonna cut it.

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Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Who provides the software and firmware updates for my antique Samsung S4 and Galaxy young?
I hope you will give me some firmware for the old snapdragon.
Don’t forget the loads of Exynos CPUs and loads of GPUs from different vendors.

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- AbidanYre@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  
  Who provides the software and firmware updates
  
  That’s the fun part. Nobody does.
  
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TCB13@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
The future of selfhosted services might includes phones yes, Android most likely not.

Think about it,

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- Wander@packmates.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  @TCB13 I'm not an expert in the matter but I wonder how large the attack surface actually is for a web service that has a single port exposed via a tunnel which can even contribute to doing some security filtering.
  The application / server component can actually be updated since it's just an APK. And someone else in this thread actually linked to whole linux distros that can be installed and run without root. In theory even if the underlying OS is insecure, more secure OSes can be installed on top, or risk can be severely limited by only exposing a single port.
  Basically, while flashing a new ROM would be ideal, I think there's likely a way in which a sandboxed and possibly even updated environment with updated TLS cyphers, CA stores, etc... can be run in a secure manner on top of a stock Android ROM.
  Furthermore, developers packaging their apps into APKs could run security checks and by the time it says "your OS is insecure" you're already on your third phone and can host stuff on your second. I mean... Android phones are in their prime for two/three years at most in my experience :P
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  - TCB13@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    
    The application / server component can actually be updated since it’s just an APK. And someone else in this thread actually linked to whole linux distros that can be installed and run without root. In theory even if the underlying OS is insecure, more secure OSes can be installed on top, or risk can be severely limited by only exposing a single port.
    
    When you install another one “on top” you’re essentially speaking about a very thin layer above the base OS. In most cases that’s simply a container that uses the base OS kernel. This is what happens today and it works for a while but it comes a point (way less than 10 years) when you won’t be able to have a modern top layer OS sitting on such older base OS because the kernel is way too old.
    
    Even if you went to the trouble of virtualization to actually have the top layer running a modern kernel it will most likely fail. It would require a LOT more effort coding the support for the old hardware and a ton of other virtualization pains to just end with, most likely, a very slow system. We’ve examples of this: it is next to impossible to virtualize Windows 11 in a Pentium 4 that runs Windows XP, for instance a versions of Vmware that supports Windows 11 won’t support a host system older than Windows 8. The same applied to VirtualBox.
    
    Basically, while flashing a new ROM would be ideal,
    
    Yes it would but for that you would have to completely break the phone’s boot security and that isn’t feasible in all cases. Most phones doesn’t allow you to unlock the bootloader thus you can’t install another ROM/OS. Even on those you can some will only accept software that was signed by the manufacturer so unless there’s a leak of the key they use or it gets bruteforced in some way you won’t be able to do it.
    
    Take older routers as examples, those don’t even protect the firmware, nothing is signed, and yet the time and effort (weeks/months) required to make a simple open firmware to turn a SINGLE model into a dumb switches / routers that it isn’t worth it - after all you can get a < 30€ device today that is faster and more power efficient than those old units.
    
    With phones things are considerable worse as modern day devices are way more locked down than those router ever were. There’s also way more fragmentation (hundreds of phone models all running very specific hardware and software hacks). It’s very likely that in 10 years you’ll be able to buy some ARM / RISC board, such as a raspberry pi, that is open, run a modern OS out of the box and most likely cost you 30€.
    
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- TCB13@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  People who downvote, care to explain? You clearly never tried to access the Internet / install modern software on a Windows XP computer :)
  
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  - Wander@yiffit.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Am curious. Are you able to run a modern windows 10 virtual machine / virtualbox vm on XP?
    
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  - SuperMoosie@mastodon.au ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    @TCB13
    I have by getting rid of win xp and installing Linux.
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Wander@packmates.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
@selfhosted Update:
1. Just to clarify, the idea behind the whole point is that Android makes it easy for less tech oriented people to host small single user / family services.
It does not need to be perfect, have massive throughput or allow for massive amounts of read/write cycles.
If people can host their own media server like Jellyfin or note taking apps like Joplin instead of using commercial services by simply installing an APK, that's already a big win.
2. Regarding device longevity, Android 13 apparently supports / will support full KVM emulation. Windows can be run if you have root while android based VMs are expected to be possible without the need for root. Since this type of virtualization allows VMs to run their own kernel, keeping the "server app" updated should allow the user to be protected even if the host OS is outdated as long as these server-app-VMs are trustworthy themselves.
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- leggylav@packmates.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  @Wander @selfhosted digging into the updates or running linux instead of android that other comments are mentioning feels like missing the point a bit.
  the accessibility that this would provide could easily surmount the hurdle that prevents most from being able to get off big central services. self hosting, or even any alternative that doesn't hold your hand 100% of the way (cough, mastodon) is beyond most people.
  even if it's wrapped up nicely and not precisely long term, it would do a lot for the learned helplessness that big tech trains and to bridge that accessibility gap. even if the typical end user doesn't get that involved, it could be an easy way in to understand how you might manage your own data.
  not like it's much less safe having a limited security patch lifespan than (insert big company data breach here) :vlpn_happy_blep:
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  - Wander@packmates.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    @leggylav @selfhosted OMG, yes, thank you <3
    I finally feel understood now :vlpn_cry:
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- TCB13@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  
  Regarding device longevity, Android 13 apparently supports / will support full KVM emulation. Windows can be run if you have root while android based VMs are expected to be possible without the need for root. Since this type of virtualization allows VMs to run their own kernel, keeping the “server app” updated should allow the user to be protected even if the host OS is outdated as long as these server-app-VMs are trustworthy themselves
  
  Guess you missed this: lemmy.world/comment/4731273
  
  Having virtualization doesn’t ensure future success.
  
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bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Just use raspberry pis and Linux. You’ll have better support.

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- AbidanYre@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Then ditch the raspberry pi and get an sff PC that has an x86 processor in it.
  
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  - bustrpoindextr@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Pass, I’ll take the cluster of raspberry pis for the same cost… For the purpose of self hosting my cluster is going to out perform your x86. Like why are you going to spend hundreds of dollars for an x86 that will do fine when you can spend $50 for a pi that will also do fine?
    
    Then you can just cluster those pis and get redundancy
    
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eskuero@lemmy.fromshado.ws ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
It has an UPS builtin 😇

Jokes aside I used to run a few python bots inside termux on my very old S3 Mini a few years ago. It did the job at least.

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ahoyboyhoy@fosstodon.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
@Wander @selfhosted also, don't forget that it's easy enough to run Linux on Android: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/tech.ula/
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- Wander@packmates.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  @ahoyboyhoy @selfhosted Nice. I remember trying it out once. Actually I might use that to follow my own advice and self-host at home once I retire my current phone.
  True, I haven't had the need because I know how to run stuff on a server, but for personal files it's probably better to host things at home.
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simple@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I’ve already heard of people using Termux to host services on their old phones. Seems to work well.

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- TCB13@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Might work right now, in 10 years those Android versions will not support anything, they wont even have root certificate updates SSL will be broken and whatnot. Maybe the phones won’t even boot because some key will expire somewhere…
  
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  - the_q@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I wish I could predict the future too.
    
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  - beirdobaggins@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Most people get a new phone every 2-3 years. If people use their 2 most recent phones as simple servers, then these are not 10 year old devices.
    
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  - MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    in 10 years? Is that a big deal? I’ve never had a single computer for 10 years.
    
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andreluis034@lm.put.tf ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
The latest pixel devices (since 6 I think?) already provide accees to a /dev/kvm device, so maybe you could even run a normal Ubuntu server VM on your phone for hosting these services.

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- hexagonwin@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  10 years ago I ran a Debian chroot inside my Android after rooting and that still works, no need to run a KVM (mostly).
  
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herzenschein@furry.engineer ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
@Wander @selfhosted This sort of setup is very attractive IMO because of the low power usage. Android phones use much less power than old PCs.
The main con I see is not having ethernet (maybe there's some sort of MicroUSB/USB-C to ethernet adapter, but I didn't look into it yet).
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- TheHolm@aussie.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Ethernet is not a problem. Plug USB-to-Ethernet adapter to your phone ( there are some requirements to both) , and you will be surprised.
  
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- marcus_grant@fosstodon.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  @herzenschein @Wander @selfhosted with a cluster, even in WiFi you could mitigate some of those problems, but for home use clusters is potentially asking too much
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ahoyboyhoy@fosstodon.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
@Wander @selfhosted I have old Pixel phones with LineageOS installed, but I haven't found a good way to prevent battery inflation. I'd love a way to limit charge to 50% or to bypass the battery altogether.
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- Wander@packmates.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  @ahoyboyhoy @selfhosted How old is the phone and what version of the OS are you using? I was under the impression that modern phones bypass the battery when connected to the charger and having full charge.
  Regarding limiting the charge, I believe there's some software calibration you can do which would allow you to set it to 50%. I'm no expert in battery or repairs at all, so someone else might have a better idea.
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  - ahoyboyhoy@fosstodon.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    @Wander @selfhosted I have a Pixel 3 and 5. Where might I find out if the charge controller functions as you say?
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- WheelcharArtist@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Try acca
  
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BearOfaTime@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I’d be more inclined to say Raspberry Pi. Low power, small, scalable.

I’m currently designing a sync/backup/mesh network device for family/friends. Something they can simply plugin, and I can manage remotely.

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muzzle@freeradical.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
@Wander @selfhosted Sounds like a great way to kill you phone's battery. But maybe if you created an ad-hoc stack... Have you ever heard of @veilidnetwork ?
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sir_reginald@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I’d rather use a real OS, thank you

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z00s@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Counterpoint: spicy pillows

I was going to host pihole on an old android until I noticed it getting quite warm while continuously connected to power. Realised I didn’t know the lifespan of the battery and didn’t want it tp start a fire.

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beirdobaggins@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Just for shingles, I setup and ran a minecraft Java server on an old phone for a little while. I did this through Termux.

It was surprisingly good.

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beaumains@aus.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
@Wander @selfhosted I wonder wouldn't it be better to put together a Kubernetes OS for android.
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Decronym@lemmy.decronym.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:

Fewer Letters More Letters

RPi Raspberry Pi brand of SBC

SBC Single-Board Computer

SSL Secure Sockets Layer, for transparent encryption

[Thread #231 for this sub, first seen 22nd Oct 2023, 22:25] [FAQ] [Full list] [Contact] [Source code]

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TheHobbyist@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I think there’s some truth to it. But I imagine it will be more AOSP than what android is with google services. AOSP is really a great operating system with very good security and built in features. And with neural engines and high bandwidth emmc, it is mostly just lacking a large amount of storage to make it all complete, but the latest SOCs are most probably powerful enough. Is there something like docker for android? :)

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AMS@infosec.exchange ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
@Wander @selfhosted I in fact already use android for syncthing.
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- Wander@packmates.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  @AMS @selfhosted yes, hopefully we'll see an explosion in self-hostable alternatives that can be installed as easily as syncthing.
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Fewer Letters	More Letters
RPi	Raspberry Pi brand of SBC
SBC	Single-Board Computer
SSL	Secure Sockets Layer, for transparent encryption

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