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The Stock Market is Just Financial Fantasy Sports

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Submitted ⁨⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨anonymouse2@sh.itjust.works⁩ to ⁨showerthoughts@lemmy.world⁩

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  • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Former econometrician here:

    Yes. Correct.

    Ever since stock buybacks became the bog standard default, and P/E ratios are between ‘significantly elevated’ and ‘completely fucking delusional’…

    Yep. None this shit makes any real sense.

    Which is actually a huge problem.

    Because… the economic ‘point’ of a stock market, in capitalism, is more or less to act as a kind of giant, collective brain, that figures out how to efficiently and rationally allocate capital and investments.

    The ‘invisible hand’, and all that.

    So when that brain spends a decade or two more or less in a euphoric psychotic break… well… it doesn’t exactly make sound financial choices.

    Which translates into about two decades of nonsensical investment of a society’s resources.

    Less ‘theoretically’: Its a giant gambling machine, and if you’re not rigging the game yourself, 99.9999% chance you’re the mark, you’re gonna lose.

    And you won’t see it coming, not untill its too late for you to get out intact.

    Economists have for a long time referred to state run lotteries as effectively an ‘idiot tax’, because anyone who can do fairly basic statistics also knows they’re very likely to lose money, thus, only idiots gamble.

    The stock market as it is now more or less represents a more complex version of the same kind of thing… you’ve got the day traders, and they almost always get their clocks cleaned, they just develop a neurotic-obsessive personality based on ‘no, I’m the one guy that can outsmart the market’.

    No, you can’t.

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    • MangoCats@feddit.it ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I used to think that the market “drove engagement” - keeping people with money interested in the dealings of the companies they invested their money in.

      Lately, I feel like it’s just a giant Casino.

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      • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Way, way back in the day, when the primary model of stocks and the stock market was…

        I buy 1 share of Company X stock, for Y dollars, and once a year, it pays me Z dollars as a dividend…

        Yes, with that paradigm, it made a lot more sense to say that this ‘drove engagement’… because a stock operated more like a miniature bond in/for a company.

        But, now the whole model is ‘stock price must go up forever’, nest eggs are capital gains realized upon retirement, that you take loans out against to avoid paying cap gains tax…

        …not dividends gradually paid into a growing retirement savings account, managed by a regional or local bank.

        Which entirely blows up that way of thinking.

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      • IronBird@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        that is exactly how the US markets are setup, you can compare the US markets to EU or practically any other besides Japan and they’re drastically less exciting.

        the US’s is designed around “maximizing lquidity” via a mix of over and under regulation all meant to increase volatility.

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      • SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        No, casinos state the odds on every game and tell you if you play long enough, you will lose everything. The stock market actually calls itself a free market, which is hilarious.

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    • uncouple9831@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      You mean 500 p/e for an established company isn’t reasonable just because they scribbled AI on a piece of paper?

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    • yesman@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Ever since stock buybacks became the bog standard default, and P/E ratios are between ‘significantly elevated’ and ‘completely fucking delusional’…

      At what point do we start to consider that capitalist economies aren’t broken, but that they never worked in the first place?

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      • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Ideally around 150 years ago, but far, far too late is better than never.

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    • MarriedCavelady50@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Don’t index funds work better than individual stocks?

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      • tempest@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        They do, however a lot of people have known that for a while.

        The large index funds have a lot of influence when it comes to voting.

        As more and more people just invest in ETFs I do wonder if we are headed for some delightful market crash as a result.

        I’m not even close to an expert though… Which is why I use index funds in the first place. Just wondering how I’m going to get screwed before it eventually happens.

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      • pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Index funds are much better than individual stocks. But Index fund price to earnings ratios still reflect their individual component stocks.

        When the P/E ratio is 40, a rough way to read that is “it will take 40 years of stability for this purchase to pay off”.

        Many people don’t have 40 working years left to wait for a stock purchase today to pay off.

        And the supply of “years of stability” isn’t looking amazing, right now, either.

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      • SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Index funds work better than 80% of stock analysts.

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    • Strider@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      The main issue with all of this is that we still Indeed value companies based on this. It’s totally insane and leads to all the wrong development and ultimately to our downfall.

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    • IronBird@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      it’s incredibly easy to beat the market when it a bull market (where do you think all these ratfucks put their illgotten gains…), i’m up 5000%+ ytd, not shorting anything just buying low selling high

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      • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Yes, and then the trick is timing your exit or restructuring into countercyclicals … at the right time.

        And timing is the part almost everyone fucks up.

        Also, if you’re ‘buying low and selling high’, and you’re up 5000+ ytd?

        Then you’re basically daytrading, which basically means this is a full on part time job for you, at least…

        … and while did you say you’re not shortselling, you did not say you’re not using any leverage.

        So uh yeah, best of luck, hope you can keep up the perfectly timed dance, and never miss a beat, nor miss an upcoming time signature change.

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    • SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Anyone who wastes 4 years on a commerce degree: explain why TSLA is $480. They will curl up in a fetal position crying.

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      • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        A… commerce degree?

        Forgive my American dialect, but is that… Canadian… for a Business degree?

        Uh anyway, myself having degrees in Econ and Poli Sci, here’s my attempt at explaining it, at this late date:

        Sunk Cost Fallacy.

        IE, its now essentially its own self-perpetuating delusion, its own bubble all in and of itself.

        How did it get to this point?

        Uh, Elon is a con artist.

        See the same part of the Poli Sci textbooks that attempt to answer ‘Why do people who are directly, negatively impacted by Republican policies keep voting for them?’

        Though at that point we may need to just delve more into Psychology, groupthink, socially performed identities, cults, etc.

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  • Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The stakes are much higher but yes.

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    • MadMadBunny@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      So is the adrenaline rush…

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  • gustofwind@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    It’s getting pretty close to astrology these days

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  • IWW4@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I will do you one better. The Stockmarket is more like a roulette wheel.

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    • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      A roulette wheel gives everyone a fair chance with only the house (stock exchange) taking a cut.

      The stock market lets people who make giant bets give themselves an advantage. Also if they are famous or powerful they can announce what they are going to pick which will help make that number win.

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      • pinball_wizard@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Then there are HFT’s which is like if the house let really rich people install a camera tied to a computer and place bets just before the ball lands in the slot.

        Not only that, but the winnings of camera instabet players are automatically deducted from everyone else’s winnings.

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    • SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      A roulette wheel where a handful of old guys can just stop the wheel and put the glass ball wherever they want.

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  • db2@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    It’s a casino but the odds have been overwhelmingly stacked toward the house, and they get away with it because the officials overseeing it all cheat.

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  • ryrybang@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Exhibit 1: www.multpl.com/shiller-pe

    Exhibit 2: Tesla’s 323 P/E ratio and $1.6 trillion market cap.

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  • henfredemars@infosec.pub ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    With a positive expected value, in theory, so long as we’re able to sustain growth forever.

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  • rook@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    What are memecoins then?

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