Manufacturer issues remote kill command to disable smart vacuum after engineer blocks it from collecting data — user revives it with custom hardware and Python scripts to run offline

Submitted ⁨⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨spaghettiwestern@sh.itjust.works⁩ to ⁨technology@lemmy.world⁩

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/big-tech/manufacturer-issues-remote-kill-command-to-nuke-smart-vacuum-after-engineer-blocks-it-from-collecting-data-user-revives-it-with-custom-hardware-and-python-scripts-to-run-offline

An engineer got curious about how his iLife A11 smart vacuum worked and monitored the network traffic coming from the device. That’s when he noticed it was constantly sending logs and telemetry data to the manufacturer — something he hadn’t consented to. The user, Harishankar, decided to block the telemetry servers’ IP addresses on his network, while keeping the firmware and OTA servers open. While his smart gadget worked for a while, it just refused to turn on soon after. After a lengthy investigation, he discovered that a remote kill command had been issued to his device.

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GreenShimada@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
The fact that this isn’t considered outright fraud is disturbing. This person OWNS the device, yes? They’re not leasing it.

FFS, this should be illegal.

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- Vorticity@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I agree with you that this should be illegal. I expect this was in the terms of service, though. Since we have no laws restricting this kind of bullshit, the company can argue that they’re within their rights.
  
  We need some real legislation around privacy. It’s never going to happen, but it needs to. We need a right to anonymity but that is too scary for advertisers and our police state.
  
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  - FartMaster69@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Terms of service need to stop being treated like law.
    
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  - dan@upvote.au ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Just because something’s written in the terms of service, doesn’t mean it’s legal.
    
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  - GreenShimada@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    I expect this was in the terms of service, though
    
    While I expect the same, there’s also just a reasonablility standard. If Meta and Google updated their TOS to say that users agreed to become human chattle slaves to mine cobalt and forfeit their rights, no court (…right, SCOTUS?..right?) would uphold that. A TOS is a contract, but it’s mostly for the protection of companies from liability. Takign active steps to brick someone’s device over the device not connecting to it’s C2 server (the company had zero evidence this was done intentionally and a router firewall misconfiguration could just have easily done the same thing), is IMO something that should result in a lawsuit.
    
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- Zier@fedia.io ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There needs to be a huge neon orange warning on the Front of these products that explains, clearly, that you don't own it, your privacy will be invaded and the company can disable it at anytime.
  This will stop people from buying this garbage, and hopefully companies will stop if they want our money.
  
  My life rule is, if it says Smart on it, it's never going to be smart. It will always cause trouble.
  
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  - GreenShimada@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    IMO “Smart” refers to the lawyers that got paid to write a 900-page TOS that lets a company do whatever they want.
    
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- Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  If it were illegal, that would be a huge infraction to FREEDOM®🦅🦅
  
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- artyom@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Too bad he’s an engineer and not a lawyer.
  
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- theyoyomaster@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Unfortunately this is from a Chinese company and China will never make it illegal; hell they’re more likely to pass a law requiring ILIFE to share the personal data with the government than tell them not to collect them. This could be enforced for US based companies but as long as we buy luxury goods from China this is going to be a fact of life.
  
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spaghettiwestern@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
My robot vac will not operate when not connected to the Internet so it’s only allowed to communicate when actually in use. As soon as it returns to the charger the vacuum is immediately blocked via firewall.

Unfortunately the manufacturer has deliberately made this as inconvenient as possible. If communication is blocked for more than a few hours the vacuum loses all maps and will no longer load saved maps from the Tuya app. To use it the vac must be powered down and the app killed. Only then can a saved map be restored.

It’s too bad it’s so useful .

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- Brkdncr@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Name and shame.
  
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  - FauxLiving@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    from the Tuya app.
    
    www.tuya.com/solution/hardware/robot-vacuum
    
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- ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  it’s only allowed to communicate when actually in use.
  
  What’s the point? The manufacturer is interested in the map of your apartment and usage statistics. What do you think it’s sending when not in use? Does it have a microphone or something?
  
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  - spaghettiwestern@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Since I haven’t pulled it apart or tried to decrypt the ssl traffic so I have no idea whether it has “a microphone or something.” That’s the point.
    
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j4k3@piefed.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Stalkerware is criminal digital slavery. It is sale and ownership of a part of a person to manipulate and exploit them.

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- BennyTheExplorer@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I think your comparison to slavery is a bit overblown and minimizes the tragedy of actual slavery. But I agree with the sentiment.
  
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  - Twinklebreeze@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    No. This robot vacuum situation is basically the Holocaust, and if you can’t see that then you are complicit. /s
    
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brsrklf@jlai.lu ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
There’s something not working in this article.

They say it “makes sense” for the device to basically send the plan of your home to some online server, because the vacuum is not powerful enough to process this data on its own. This is already a bit horrifying to me, but okay.

And then when that guy blocked it out, the vacuum “worked for a while” before something sent the kill command through an update.

How come is it still working at all if navigation requires that server?

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- fonix232@fedia.io ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It's not the navigation that requires the server but the processing of the mapping data.
  
  Which in itself is BS because most of these vacuums come with hardware roughly equivalent of a top of the line smartphone from about 5-6 years ago. They can easily do the raw data to map conversion, even if it's a bit slow and takes 20-30 seconds.
  
  Also if you read the article it specifies that the damn thing is already running Google Cartographer which is a SLAM 3D map builder software - one of the better pro-grade mapping software suites, mind you. So the whole claim of cloud needed for processing is BS.
  
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  - brsrklf@jlai.lu ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    My VR headset can create pretty accurate 3D maps of my environment like nothing, and it only uses cameras to do so, so I can imagine it’s doable.
    
    Then, yeah, it doesn’t “make sense” for that thing to externalize that.
    
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  - Nalivai@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    It’s not that it’s impossible, but it requires effort, skill, and time. Instead of hiring a bunch of programmers who would make it run on the device locally, you can just throw the same amount of money at Amazon and it will run whatever unoptimised version of the renderer you stole on some random Chinese forum. As a bonus, you got to enrich a multibillionaire and make a world slightly worse place, which is a second and third priority of every CEO after getting money.
    
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Microtonal_Banana@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Louis Rossman should do a segment on them.

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psx_crab@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
As useful a smart device are, it’s very annoying that the company behind it are always either: 1) a scumbag that will collect data and will lockdown the device if people doesn’t use it their way; 2)incompetent idiots that can’t make a good software to save their life. So by using these device you basically have to pick the thing that you’re willing to lose.

It’s really too bad because robovac save me a lot of time and mental exhaustion.

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YgestWefsid@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I am planning to make a list of devices I really do NOT want near me. Starting with this one.

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- Poem_for_your_sprog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Gonna be a long list…
  
  Time to run off into the forest I suppose
  
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- Petter1@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Network segmentation.
  
  But yea, you don’t want a moving cam/mic device reporting home…
  
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rowinxavier@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I have just purchased a Dreame L10s Ultra and have had the PCB for a breakout board made and components for setting it up ordered. In a few days I should get the last bits and I will be able to root the device and have it connect to Valetudo managed through Home Assistant. Fully local operation with basically the same features but none of the privacy issues. As soon as I can get it connected I will be able to use it just like a robot I actually own should without some random third party being involved in every single operation.

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- illpillow@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The mentioning of Valetudo should be more at the top to make people aware of the existing alternatives.
  
  My aged Roborock S5 suddenly stopped working a year ago and only cleaned a very small segment making it effectively useless. Since I knew that data is exchanged with the manufacturer I suspected them to actively prevent the device from working properly to make me buy a new one. Thanks to Valetudo the device is working back again just fine. Meaning there never was a hardware (or software) failure, but a remote issue.
  
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  - rowinxavier@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    This is why free software is so important. The company can just lie to you about their product and for some reason it isn’t illegal. I really want to have a dishwasher and washing machine with an ESP32 controller and free software to control it, ideally with Home Assistant integration, but at this point I can’t find anything.
    
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doomsel@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I specifically got one which can run valetudo and it works great for over two years now. Without sending images of my flat to china or the us

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elvith@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Having not read the article: “Let’s apply Hanlon’s Razor: Oh, probably it just collects the data locally and caches it until the vendor’s servers are reachable. After a while the data partition was full and it stopped working as this case was never deemed possible when this was developed.”

Having read that the kill command was logged and he found it in the logs: “ok, there are no technical details, so there might still be a misunderstanding, but that’s not what I expected!”

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Blackmist@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Had a kill command actually been sent, or does the device just not work without a remote server talking to it every so often?

Because the second one is probably worse from a “what if this company goes bust” standpoint.

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- core@leminal.space ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Man itd be great if there was an answer to this. Maybe in an article somewhere. Guess we’ll never know.
  
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- Nalivai@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Don’t worry, the quality of the modern hardware is so shitty, it will not outlive the company for long
  
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FosterMolasses@leminal.space ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Jesus christ, just vaccuum your own house already. This is the largest tradeoff I have ever seen for the minor inconvenience of a single household chore.

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- Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  This comment is fucking insane lol
  
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- ArmchairAce1944@discuss.online ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I dont even vacuum. I get on my knees and clean my floors by hand.
  
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  - flying_sheep@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I can’t do that, I have bone spurs (actually though)
    
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Canuck@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Valetudo

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- Grass@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I don’t think any compatible machines can be acquired in my region any more. The only one I saw semi recently had a revision a few years ago but no packaging or model change to match so you can’t verify if its the older model that works or the newer one that doesn’t.
  
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ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I was thinking about getting one but I learned that they do require a lot of maintenance like cleaning the brushes and you have to change parts regularly. That sounds like more work they just sweeping from time to time. Also, broom has a lower carbon footprint.

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- spaghettiwestern@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Ours has needed very little maintenance and has quickly become a necessity because it gets the floors much cleaner that we ever did. An unexpected consequence is that the whole house stays cleaner because we still spend some of the time and energy we were spending on sweeping on other cleaning tasks.
  
  As much as the thing irritates me you’d have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.
  
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  - ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I guess it depends on your use case. I know people with pets love them because sweeping hair is a lot of work. Probably the same with kids. For us with no pets or kids there’s really not that much sweeping.
    
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- gergolippai@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I bought one and was disappointed to realise that i still need to (manually!) tidy up the rooms (kids’ toys, cats’ toys etc) for it to have good effect. yes, i am not very smart.
  
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percent@infosec.pub ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I wish companies would at least offer a “no data collecting/selling” price option. Like, how much would they make from selling my data? Just give me the option to pay that extra amount so I can buy a vacuum without thinking about how it’s spying on me.

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- deathbird@mander.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  My concern is that they’ll include the equipment for spying on you, and just enable it later.
  
  I bought a Hue because it said “no online account required!” Later they changed their mind.
  
  I want the promise plus open standards and a base of libre software. I want them to tie themselves to the mast.
  
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  - percent@infosec.pub ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yeah, good point. Owners of Samsung “smart” refrigerators started seeing ads on them recently.
    
    I’m sure there was some sort of legal terms that users had to agree to to enable that, but it still feels like a scam. Some amount of those fridge owners would not have bought the fridge if they knew there would be ads on it at any point in time.
    
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notsure@fedia.io ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
...when i 'buy' something, should i not own and be able to use it and all functions until the end of it's mechanical processes?..

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jjlinux@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
This is every single ‘smart device’ out there. The way I was able to block everything in 2 Roborocks at home was by setting them up in Home Assistant over Matter, blocking everything and using it from HA only (us the schedules, those remain in the robots). It’s less than convenient allowing it access to the update servers once per month to see if there’s any and then blocking it again, but it’s something.

We’re preparing our ‘smart home’ for our new house that’s not finished yet by choosing only devices that are matter over wifi (not thread) so that I can set it all up to work locally ove Home Assistant. That, in my opinion, is the best way to keep some convenience while shutting those assholes out.

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- flying_sheep@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Most of them, sure. Every single one until proven otherwise, yes. Every single one, no qualifiers? No.
  
  Brands like Shelly allow you to completely disable the cloud, which AFAIK makes them stop phoning home completely except for update checks.
  
  I think a lot of “Home Assistant certified” brands are good privacy-wise, as that means that they don’t care about pushing you onto their proprietary cloud.
  
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Hadriscus@jlai.lu ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Same story with this guy (in french)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGMRUiBOFj0

Highly recommend watching his stuff, might be very technical but also super methodical

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FelixCress@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

remote kill command had been issued to his device.

What the actual fuck?!

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notreallyhere@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
while this is good, we really don’t need all these smart devices in the first place

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- GreyEyedGhost@piefed.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  We could still live in caves, but most of us have chosen not to. I’m personally of the opinion that every advancement that gives you more time to do things that are important to you are worth it. This doesn’t mean inviting every piece of spyware some company tries to thrust upon me is acceptable, either.
  
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  - notreallyhere@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    people have less free time now, then any time since the labor movement.
    
    tech hasn’t been the solution ; but tech companies have been the problem
    
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tabular@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Libre alternative?

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- zod000@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  A broom? /s, but not really
  
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NGC2346@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Old news that’s been posted several times in the last weeks

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SpiceDealer@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Reject bottom feeder, Embrace Rigid vacuum.

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- LuigiMaoFrance@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  broom chads stay winning
  
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FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Yeah, mine has it. I have to go into the app once a week and manually delete it.

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imetators@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
That’s like a month old news article

No one should be outraged. That is how all robovacs are working - use LIDAR to map area -> send back to server -> server calculates optimal cleaning route -> sends back info to vac -> vac cleans. Vac cant ping back to server - server thinks vac is dead. No killswitch is needed.

Also, app is not a necessity except we are forced to use it. But many would not like to lose an ability to track progress or start and stop cleaning from their phone outside of the home network. For these features, app and external server is a must.

The only real issue with robo vacs is that it is an IoT device. We should make manufacturers and brands to let us choose if we want to selfhost their software. But that would never happen.

This article IMO is full of bs and ragebait.

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- nekusoul@lemmy.nekusoul.de ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  What I don’t understand is why the person that owns the device wrote the following in their blog post:
  
  How could a simple IP block disable a vacuum cleaner that is supposed to work offline as well? - Source
  
  This seems like that device was sold to him as “offline” capable. Where does that claim even come from? From a cursory glance I don’t see that product advertised that way anywhere.
  
  Now, I’d be totally in favor that such devices working offline should be the norm, but then again, the person writing the blog should know how these devices currently work.
  
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  - imetators@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Say, if he got it because it was advertised as an offline device then why would he connect it to wifi anyway? The more I read this article, the more questionable this so called “IT specialist” is.
    
    This is how it has been for a long time - robovacs do to talk to a server. Should it? Not necessary. But they undeniably do.
    
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