Please, tell me how “paying for hardware costs is enough”…
@stux@mstdn.social
I can send you the full 274 on the 1st but I cannot use PayPal. If we can figure out a different way for me to get you the money hmu
The admin of the third largest Mastodon instance (16k monthly active users) is asking for help to pay rent
Submitted 1 year ago by rglullis@communick.news to fediverse@lemmy.world
https://mstdn.social/@stux/114224207456290061
Comments
JustAnotherKay@lemmy.world 1 year ago
MrRazamataz@lemmy.razbot.xyz 1 year ago
Their post listed 5 other options.
JustAnotherKay@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Jesus Christ I know I need glasses but they’re RIGHT THERE in my face too. Thank you lmfao
recall519@lemm.ee 1 year ago
The core argument here is should there be an expectation that donations should cover admins labor costs.
Personally, if an instance is run off of donations, then it’s a nice to have. As an admin, you shouldn’t have that expectation. If you no longer want to volunteer your time, then don’t. Shut the instance down, find someone to help you maintain the instance, or pass the instance off to someone else.
I’m also okay with paid instances and admins trying to make a reasonable salary or even making additional profit as long as it’s transparent to the users. It’s their choice to charge, it’s our choice to pay.
Overall, instances should be run by a group of volunteers, not a single individual. Otherwise, the long term viability of the instance is questionable.
Blackmist@feddit.uk 1 year ago
This is one of the things that make me think the current “fediverse” isn’t going to be its final form. It’s a good stepping stone, but users and communities being locked to a single instance will become a bugbear sooner rather than later.
Wiz@midwest.social 1 year ago
My local Madison insurance is forming a steering committee and has created an LLC. (I’m a member of the committee.) We will solicit donations, because mostly it has been one guy paying for a small regional instance of about 100 AU.
We think of it like public broadcasting, like PBS. I will be happy to kick in a few dollars per month to pay for it. We have contests, online meetups, and other fun. It’s not just Mastodon, it’s an active regional online community, and it’s worth it.
(I also donate to my Lemmy instance, because it’s worth it too!)
recall519@lemm.ee 1 year ago
I love this.
ilovepiracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
Is it an Australian instance? whats the domain?
rglullis@communick.news 1 year ago
expectation that donations should cover admins labor costs
Not quite that. The argument is that admins shouldn’t be treated as a disposable entity who don’t need any money just because they are not directly asking for it.
It’s a “I want you to want to do the dishes” kind of thing.
Shut the instance down, find someone to help you maintain the instance, or pass the instance off to someone else.
Easier said than done. We already have a long list of instances that disappear suddenly because the admins burned out, and I have had long discussions with admins from other instances who keep begging for more donations every month instead of just saying “you know what? You don’t want to help me, so I don’t owe your lot anything”.
recall519@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Well it’s not easy. They are unsung heroes. They aren’t the only volunteers in this world. Do you think the people in our communities volunteering to pick up trash or people at homeless shelters volunteering are requesting compensation or a pat on the back? Honestly, there’s more than enough instances and volunteers to host those instances.
And just to clarify, I do think our admins deserve a pat on the back and donations. I am eternally grateful, but they shouldn’t resent their community for not donating to them.
Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
have had long discussions with admins from other instances who keep begging for more donations every month
Are those Lemmy instances, or other software like Mastodon?
DigitalDruid@lemmy.sdf.org 1 year ago
this is how it was in the BBS days. We volunteered our time to run the boards because we enjoyed it and had the hardware. I covered the telco costs and electricity because i could, and enjoyed providing the space for my friends. When it stopped being feasible you pass the torch.
I don’t mind pitching in now and then but I don’t feel like i owe any of the admins anything beyond gratitude.
endofline@lemmy.ca 1 year ago
@rglullis@communick.news my honest recommendation is to switch to the plain text only mode and disable file / media upload if it’s possible. Hosting plain text data is cheap
rglullis@communick.news 1 year ago
Again: hosting costs is the least of the concerns. The problem is that users are not willing to pay for the labor of admins.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 1 year ago
People are very willing to donate other’s time
DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 year ago
I don’t think you understand what volunteer means
Randomgal@lemmy.ca 1 year ago
Yep. This is it. “Leftists” on Lemmy really love the. exploitation of free labor. As long as it’s DeCeNtrALiZeD exploitation.
index@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
We need more peer to peer hosting
endofline@lemmy.ca 1 year ago
It’s already there - it’s called hyphanet ( old freenet ). It works really well removing the need being always online but it’s not popular because of no mobile clients
rglullis@communick.news 1 year ago
That would be nice, but the cost of hosting is not the issue. The problem is that people expect to have free software being developed services being offered but they don’t want to pay for the labor of developers and admins.
CluckN@lemmy.world 1 year ago
If only there was a way to charge per visit. Something like a digital billboard.
daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
I have always thought of hosting a fediverse instance for myself.
I already have a server for personal usage, the technical knowledge and it would stop being a burden on other people’s servers.
Does anyone have experience with this. The federation system works fine with one person instance? Storage goes out to the roof?
ThorrJo@lemmy.sdf.org 1 year ago
I’ve run a couple single-user Pleroma and Akkoma instances for 1 to 3 years each, one of them with a lot of follows in both directions and plenty of multimedia, and it worked fine on hardware 6 generations old on a crappy Comcast plan proxied thru a $4/mo VPS.
Other platform software (Mastodon especially) consumes vastly more compute resources than the Pleroma family. I haven’t tried self-hosting Lemmy yet. YMMV.
kernelle@0d.gs 1 year ago
I’m running my instance for the same reason, it’s been running for over a year and I’m the only active user. Although there’s people passively using it as well.
Storage doesn’t go over 100GB much. The only downside I notice is a community on Lemmy is only federated if at least one of the users is subscribed to it. Using Lemmy-federate you can add a bot account that subscribes to new communities.
oranki@piefed.social 1 year ago
I haven't tried an OG Mastodon server, but currently running a GotoSocial instance, just for me.
With mostly the default retention etc. settings, the instance takes at most a couple gigs of storage space. If some image has been rotated, it will be refetched if you view the post again.
As for Federation, a single user instance is probably not a good idea if you're just starting with the Fediverse. Only content from accounts a user on your server follows will reach your server, including posts boosted by the people someone follows. I was already following about 150 accounts when I set it up, so I didn't really notice much difference in the home feed.
OG Mastodon can utilize relays, which will help with the lack of content.
For following topics, I made another user that follows some hashtag bots from fedi.buzz. The bots boost all posts with specific hashtags, so the posts reach my server.
If I were to do this again, I'd probably go with full Mastodon instead of GtS, just because I like the UI. There are other niceties too.
I think there's no way to keep the same domain while changing the underlying server software, without breaking federation. If someone knows a way I'd be really interested.
rglullis@communick.news 1 year ago
You don’t have to host your instance if that is your concern, but if you factor everything the total cost of running an instance (getting your own PC/VPS plus disks/storage for media, plus electricity if you are running at home) will be around $150/year. You can of course get together with some of your friends and split those costs.
But if all you want is to ensure that the Fediverse is healthy and that you don’t need to worry about anything, there are commercial service providers who run servers only for paying customers. These are still cheap, $20-30 per year.
daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
The thing is that I already have a server and a few Terabytes of unused storage. So that would not be an issue. As long as storage doesn’t en up adding that much. I know that the fediverse protocol likes to replicate storage among all servers involved in an interaction. Though I wonder if it would be possible to safely erase old data, specially if I’m just hosting it for myself. I need to investigate on that.
But for the other costs I already have a server running 24/7 on my house and several Tb of Storage.
And I also need to investigate how are the normal federation politics with one person instances. If it is like trying to host an email server would be hell as you’ll get mark as spam by a lot of providers.
Azzu@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Doesn’t the Netherlands help you pay for your home if you’re too poor to be able to yourself?
Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 year ago
I would assume “,being late on rent from mastodon server costs” is not an acceptable reason
Azzu@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Makes sense :)
daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
Things doesn’t usually work like that.
Rent subsidiaries work by your annual income and usually the cost of your rent.
For instance they may pay you 300€ a month for your rent as long as your income is less than 30.000€ a year and your rent is bellow 800€/month. And increasing the thresholds if you have kids or if you are part of a protected collective.
They may be above this thresholds. It’s pretty common in Europe for people who struggle to meet ends are above the needed thresholds for getting help.
MyOpinion@lemm.ee 1 year ago
This moron needs to focus on his rent and not a mastodon server.
DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 year ago
Shit happens, unexpected costs come up.
It’s not there’s massive global financial instability going on…
airportline@lemm.ee 1 year ago
How about minding your own business?
cyborganism@lemmy.ca 1 year ago
Seriously. If this is your main instance, set up monthly donations. Even if it’s just 1$/£/€ or whatever. Times 16k that’s $16,000+/month. I donate to mine every month.
The fediverse is free because someone else is paying for it out of their own pocket. Not because they’re collecting and selling your private data. So do your part. It’s for the greater good and the freedom of the internet.
DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 1 year ago
Well.
Users don’t really know what admins are up to.
I’m 100% positive there’s stare honeypot instances, and Lemmy being what it is you don’t even really need users on it to keep track of people.
kat@orbi.camp 1 year ago
I mean, unrealistic to get anything close to all active users donating. Nobody should be expecting to setup an instance an expect tens of thousands of dollars a month.
As an indie dev back in the day, it’s a fraction of uses are willing to fork anything at all.
If anything, if you’re a whale, go big on your individual donation if you want a large impact.
Either way, you shouldn’t need that much money to cover server costs for a mere 16,000 users.
rglullis@communick.news 1 year ago
unrealistic to get anything close to all active users donating
It is quite realistic to get 100% of your users to pay. Just make registration conditional on the payment.
$10, $20 or even the $29 per year that I charge at Communick is not a significant amount of money for the average user. It is mind boggling that we got so used to “free stuff” offered by Big Tech that now anyone saying “Everyone using the service needs to pay for it” is seen as an heretic.
cyborganism@lemmy.ca 1 year ago
I understand your point. But, I don’t think anyone here is creating instances in the hopes of collecting money. They’re just trying to keep the internet free (as in speech). And no, it probably doesn’t cost that much for a server with 16k users, but it still costs something and someone is paying for that out of pocket.
We have to understand that we’re at a crossroads right now. Most of the internet is dominated by GAFAM and they control the access to information and how it’s provided. They control the narrative and have a huge bias in favor of unfettered capitalism and fascism. They not only use your own personal information for profit, but hey also benefit from government subsidies paid by taxpayers.
Meanwhile you have a government that’s increasingly cutting funding for almost everything, including important organizations that fund critical open source projects.
If we want a free (as in speech) internet, we have to understand it comes at a cost and we can’t rely on governments to fund these projects. It’s up to us to put our money where our mouth is.
I’m by no means a whale. But, if us little fishes all band together, we can become even bigger than a whale.
seathru@lemmy.sdf.org 1 year ago
So? Do, or don’t. Either their service provides people with enough value to donate to keep it running, or it doesn’t and goes under.
Altruism doesn’t pay the bills; but it doesn’t hurt to ask. Can’t blame them for that.
endofline@lemmy.ca 1 year ago
The early internet was so good because it mainly consisted from academics or people willing to share knowledge and exchange it. Modern internet is dying because of the fact that most of users are leeches and don’t contribute to the equation. Most tech youtube channels are dying because there is no gratification for content creators, it takes a lot of time, money to produce the content and they get no benefit. The end effect is they shut the whole thing down, thank you for the “service”, you only contribute to the internet “quality” downfall
seathru@lemmy.sdf.org 1 year ago
I think you’re misreading my reply (or i worded it poorly). I agree with you 100% and do contribute to the instances I use and the content creators I watch.
Empricorn@feddit.nl 1 year ago
What do you mean “so?” Maybe it does provide enough value. Not enough people know that they have to pay real money to keep the servers running. Thus the request…
rglullis@communick.news 1 year ago
Either their service provides people with enough value to donate to keep it running
You know what also works like that? Any other traditional business operation.
I am saying that since 2022: we only have a shot at this succeeding if we all start putting something at stake.
TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Are yall not sponsoring this project on patreon or otherwise?
I pitch in something like 1-2 bucks to desalines and a few bucks to .world every month.
aaron@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Yeah, so he’s asking.
nsrxn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 year ago
stick blocked at least one of my fediverse identities and I recognize I’m not objective but if he can’t keep the instance online then like ok.
shnizmuffin@lemmy.inbutts.lol 1 year ago
Rent comes before server. An outage is a wonderful motivator, turn that shit off.
Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
I assume he’s applying donations to the server costs firsts, then considering extra as profit/salary. We should be considering developer time as a core part of server costs, but I think people would react poorly if server donations went to personal expenses before server expenses.
I think one of the best thing hosts could do is be transparent about costs and how much time maintenance takes and what sort of effective wage they are getting.
shnizmuffin@lemmy.inbutts.lol 1 year ago
I think people would react poorly if server donations went to personal expenses before server expenses.
The distinction is an illusion. If a person can’t afford to live, and a part of their life is running a server, who gives a fuck which dollar goes where?
(Other than all the dipshits who offer 0 and demand anything more than nothing.)
rglullis@communick.news 1 year ago
Or we could drop the whole idea of depending on “donations” and understand that admins like professionals who would like to make a living like everyone else?
nanook@friendica.eskimo.com 1 year ago