Here's a hot take about Sekiro

Submitted ⁨⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨patientgamers@sh.itjust.works⁩

I don’t think the game is all that good or fun(personally).

I’m a pretty seasoned SoulsBorne player playing all of the games aside from Elden Ring. I’ve only had trouble on two of the bosses so far. But my big issue is I’m just not having a good time like with the other games and I’m almost done with it.

I know the combat is much faster paced which I appreciate but its also very dull. Its the same Dark Souls combat with most of the creativity removed and a looooot of parrying. And the parrying isn’t even rewarding, it makes it like a rhythm game.

Problem with it being a rhythm game though is that I expect to know when I need to parry but the timings are all over the place. I also just don’t think the enemies are all that different to fight, most of them are the exact same in this game just different timings or tells.

I mean I see the reviews, everyone loves this game and I loved all the other games but is it just the fast paced combat and grappling hook that helps it? Having a visible story is nice so far too I suppose.

I’m just curious if other people do or don’t like it and why or why not.

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ExpiringSharpie@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
This is how I feel about all “soulslike” games. To me they’re all big Mario Maker levels with extra steps, and I don’t like Mario Maker either (at least not what people do with the more difficult levels). And this is not about the games being too hard, I actually enjoy that aspect, my favorite games are roguelikes and multiplayer games with very deep mechanics, like Dota 2 and Counter-Strike. I like being challenged and I don’t mind losing, as long I get rewarded with something that feels meaningful (like getting better at the game or learning more about the story).

The issue is actually that what people call challenging in these games come from the level designer trolling you, like an enemy that is in a weird spot and is designed to kill you without giving you real chance, then you just memorize it and repeat that loop until you reach the end of the game. This is a pattern with the bosses too, it’s not about being smart or experimenting with interesting mechanics, but about knowing the bullshit hitboxes, or the weird timing on the enemy animations. To top it up the story is often very minimalistic and relies on very basic tropes. So what’s left for me is a huge time sink without any real reward.

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Phunter@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Preface: I have played through DS1 multiple times, DS 3 multiple times, Elden Ring multiple times, and Sekiro twice. I love all these games to bits. I tried DeS, and while I found it fascinating, I came upon it too late and did not feel like proceeding as I have been spoiled by later titles.

Sekiro is beloved due to its very tight design. It asks the player to excel at a handful of specific skills rather than presenting a wide array of options and going “well some of this ought to work for you if combined correctly”. Is either approach better than the other? Subjective. But it’s easy to see why one or the other could appeal more or less to individuals.

That being said, with a narrower band of skills to sharpen comes more constrained encounters. Sekiro is (chiefly) a game about one-on-one combat where nearly every attack can be deflected. “Parry” really is the wrong word for the primary defensive option in Sekiro. Even attacks that are telegraphed with the big red “watch out!” warning actually CAN be deflected (though perhaps you’d be a fool to try). The game is clearly trying to get the player into the groove of trading strikes. You attack until sparks fly, the enemy disengages, or winds up an attack unhindered by your strikes. Then you are met with the defensive challenge: here is one or more attacks with different timings and potential responses. It is now up to the player to answer with whatever they feel is most effective. This may be deflect, block, dodge, jump, mikiri counter, consumable item, or shinobi prosthetic tool. You may find more than one answer fits and therein lies the player’s ability to be creative.

I would argue being creative within a more limited set of constraints does not necessarily diminish the quality of satisfaction one could experience. Being able to master - or at minimum become proficient with - a difficult set of skills despite constraints could even be argued to be far more satisfying as there is less opportunity to find some cheese in the massive toolbox that you would otherwise have access to. And it’s not like the toolbox you have in Sekiro is as small as some detractors seem to think. However, it is much smaller and focused than other titles… especially Elden Ring.

And this is me only talking about the combat. All the other aspects of the game are very well designed too, but I’ve said enough. Also, critics tend to focus on the combat anyway.

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- CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Appreciate the detailed response. I think there are merits to what you’re saying about the combat being very tight but it’s extremely demanding of the player on those specific skills and that’s exactly what I find incredibly boring about it actually.
  
  Sekiro is at its best for me when there are sparks flying and I’m fending off a flurry of blades left and right, getting those perfect timings and sussing out the beat to which the enemy is coming at me with. Even some of the regular enemies do a great job at showcasing what’s possible with the system.
  
  But then I hit the second Owl fight. In this fight you are fending off attacks that it does not matter if you fend off or not. You will spend minutes fending off attacks for a one or two hit window to chip at damage. You will do this over and over again for 15 minutes. It’s boring. And if you get clipped by a hitbox or dodge at the wrong time, instant death. It makes all of the flaws of the game including the camera and lock on system just come out in full force.
  
  Let me put it this way: I feel like a speed runner trying to execute what I know are the exact right moves over and over again for 10-15 minutes without making minor mistakes. As opposed to other souls games where the combat would ebb and flow, this game is one speed and you must approach enemies a few ways at most. That’s the part that gets boring is that I can’t go in going “I’m going to try to dodge this differently” and instead I’m going back in thinking “I sure hope I hit jump at this one part faster” or “don’t miss that one parry or you die” or “how do I avoid that broken hitbox?”
  
  Specifically I had to take a break after fighting the fire demon and seeing it about to charge forward so I dodge behind it, only to die from it charging away from me despite have multiple feet of distance between us. This isn’t the first fight this type of thing has happened in either. The sumo dude in the memory is pretty bad for this as well.
  
  Have you ever noticed that about these games? Maybe I’m off base but I feel like FromSoft is almost like Bethesda in the way that they have some rough edges to a game demanding perfection from you but a lot of people just say it adds to the difficulty or that it’s expected. It’s not massive issues but I’ve lost many fights in this game to stuff that wasn’t my fault at all.
  
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  - Phunter@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    I experienced few bugs in Sekiro, so I can’t comment on that. The buggiest/jankiest experience I’ve had with a From game was DS1 and that stuff did frustrate me to no end.
    
    The difficulty spikes you speak of for Owl 2 and Demon of Hatred are kind of the point (you didn’t mention it, but Butterfly 2 as well). Those are optional story-focused bosses where everything is cranked up to 11. They are “challenge mode” encounters. This applies to Demon of Hatred especially. It’s basically a DS boss in Sekiro. The boss mechanics and combat mechanics clash with dissonance. It makes it challenging, but in a rather frustrating way because few other encounters are like it (maybe headless to a small degree?). You’re basically taking a test for a subject you didn’t get to study for so you have to learn on the job. It is definitely the fight that took the most attempts by a wide margin. Conversely, the final boss is the opposite: the culmination of all the things you’ve been taught put on dazzling display. It’s your final “performance” if you will.
    
    None of this is to say the skill ask of the player is not demanding, because it is. The patterns required to respond during enemy aggression is different than a Soulslike, but I think it’s still in the same neighborhood. “When the enemy/boss does X, I do Y”, the difference being in Sekiro the strings of X and Y are much faster and there’s far more of them. If you don’t like that variation on the theme, well then that’s it… You don’t like it! There’s nothing wrong with not liking something. And I know some players describe an event while muddling through where something “clicks” and they suddenly “get it” and then enjoy it far more (this applies to all From games). But it’s possible Souls games will click for you and Sekiro simply will not.
    
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- zo0@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  That is a very comprehensive and well articulated response. I enjoyed the game for what it was and I appreciate the response it got which set the foundation for the success of Elden Ring.
  
  With that said, I still strongly believe that DMC5 got robbed that year for the attention it deserved. Personally, I believe DMC5 did everything Sekiro was doing better. From combat, characters to enemy and level design.
  
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catsarebadpeople@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
“aside from Elden Ring”

Bruh. This is the hot take here. Sekiro is excellent but I can understand why some don’t like it. It actually took my two tries, years apart, to get through it but after I did it’s one of my favorites.

However, why the frick wouldn’t you play Elden Ring? Blasphemy really

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- edgemaster72@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Well, this is the patient gamers sub, so that might explain why they haven’t played it yet…
  
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  - catsarebadpeople@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Fair.
    
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  - zipzoopaboop@lemmynsfw.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    It is down to like $30 right now
    
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- Lumisal@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Blasphemy isn’t make by FromSoft 🙃
  
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MidsizedSedan@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Souls + elden ring games: dodging just avoids damage. For me, its just dodging the 7 moves untill the boss does the right opening for me to punish. Sekiro: deflecting does posture damage to the boss. You are in control of the fight. (Bloodborne: fingers crossed next week)

Also, your first taste of New Game Plus might also change your mind. I know saying ‘wait till new game plus’ is a bad argument, but my first playthrough, it took me days to beat genichiro in the castle. New game plus, you know all the moves, and you end up one shotting+no hitting the boss. Its like YOU’RE the boss now just putting down all the bosses that put you down the first time.

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- jjjalljs@ttrpg.network ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  You don’t even need to wait for ng+. Sometimes I just start a new game and cruise through the first parts. Clear the “you should lose here” tutorial boss and go all the way to lady butterfly. Then I usually run out of steam.
  
  It’s really satisfying to be able to do that without a level up grind
  
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plm00@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I love the game, but did admittedly struggle for one reason: regular enemies are pretty easy, then you’ll be hit with a boss that stonewalls you. There’s no build up in difficulty. Enemies = trivial. Bosses = ludicrous. Additionally bosses are often a battle of attrition, and I don’t have the sanity to last several minutes engaged in the same attack pattern.

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- CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  I think that’s why I don’t enjoy this as much as other souls games. It means you spend a lot less time just wandering and slowly getting to a new room or hallway bit by bit. And there aren’t a whole lot of regular enemies that I have to square off against, just mini bosses. The levels also don’t have the same variance to them that other Souls games do, it’s all pretty locked in reality.
  
  So yeah I can’t say I will super remember the locations like I do with other souls games or remember certain enemies like I would the knight archers of Anor Londo. It feels more like a boss rush game
  
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  - plm00@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Crazy thing is, Wukong plays like a giant boss rush. Yet I adore it because the difficulty is so incredibly honed in and boss attacks are so well projected. Sounds like Sekiro didn’t refine their difficulty quite well enough.
    
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djidane535@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I love Dark Souls, but Sekiro was very frustrating.

The main issues I have with it is that (I) you have one playstyle (vs. the dozens weapons in Dark Souls), meaning that if you don’t like it, you are stuck, and (II) after a while, you only fight bosses (finding your way to reach a boss was part of the fun in Dark Souls, and this has been dropped after the first half of the game I would say).

The game is also much more difficult, because the parrying system allows your enemies to heal after a while. You have to be very aggressive and master all the patterns, otherwise they heal.

It took me around 50 hours to complete, among which I was stuck 15-20 hours on the final boss. It’s not a bad game, but if the gameplay does not match with your playstyle, it can almost be impossible to complete.

What’s a bit disturbing, is that I loved Sekiro at first. It was very fun for the first 10 hours I would say. I could totally imagine people love Sekiro for those first hours, and gave up before it becomes « annoying » (since we know most people do not complete their games).

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- caut_R@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Agree with you, I platinum‘d it but in the end it frustrated me way more than any other Soulsborne title since there‘s practically no different approaches to fights. You either learn the one way they want you to beat the boss in or you‘re stuck. There‘s no choosing magic or a smaller weapon or a bigger weapon or more armor or less armor.
  
  I also think it‘s by far the hardest of the Soulsbornes (that I‘ve played), it‘s basically the Dark Souls of Soulsborne games lol
  
  I think I‘d pass on a Sekiro 2, having experienced this once is enough for me.
  
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nimble@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
It took me a long time to get the sekiro timings down but they are not “all over the place”. They are literally timed with when you would get hit and take damage.

Deflect (there is no parry) too soon and you won’t take damage by you’ll receive posture damage. Deflect on time and you get no damage and no posture damage. Deflect too late and you get damage and posture penalty.

What i liked about sekiro is that it taught me how to be a better DS player. In DS i never bothered to parry, but after being forced to learn the deflect mechanic i went back to DS and was able to do parry more consistently. That aside, the game had fun, challenging combat and the narrative was compelling.

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- CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  They are all over the place for certain enemies, you’re probably just used to it and are using sound and rhythm for most of it. Which is something I’ve had to get used to but I noticed many of the enemies make it harder to learn them because what I expect vs what I get out of the parry makes less sense.
  
  I think most of the sword based enemies you’re correct, their attacks are fair and the timings make sense. It’s on the other enemies that I have issues. Specifically any spear enemy or any enemy who puts their weapon in the wall or floor or any enemy who has an exceptionally large weapon.
  
  For enemies that put their weapon in the floor, of which there are quite a few in this game, they are incredibly hard to parry. How are you supposed to parry a weapon you can’t see coming? You just have to memorize the timing on most of them.
  
  Similarly due to how circles work, if you’re close to an enemy with a large weapon you’re going to get hit sooner if you’re closer to them. Works mostly fine if the enemy is still, this makes sense to the brain. But when the enemy is jumping, flying, moving quickly it makes it very hard to even understand when the weapon might land. And if you’re close up to one of these enemies, the hitbox often extends even from the hilt of their sword. For instance I’ve been hit several times while hugging an enemy who thrusts away from me toward the side but the hilt of their sword does damage to me because its hitbox is likely a cylinder.
  
  It’s not the worst thing in the world, it’s an improvement from other souls games. But they even do this intentionally just to mess with you and make swing speed varied at times even though there’s no way you can do it visually for some enemies.
  
  So yes the timings are all over the place but it’s even intentional. Each different weapon used by the different enemies is something you must die and learn to parry. On the whole it’s mostly fair, but certain enemies it’s deliberate and frustrating.
  
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ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I get why people love Sekiro, though it is a game I have played off and on for years now and just never finished. By the time I get myself resituated I start to lose energy for it again.

The biggest thing for me are the controls. The time and focus on committing everything to muscle memory is the barrier to Sekiro. As the years go on I find I just plain don’t have the brainspace for such a specialized game.

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- CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Luckily this game just clicked for me in that way with the parry system but I get why people would immediately be turned off if they couldn’t get it down.
  
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  - ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    The parry system isn’t really the barrier I think with the controls. If anything that is the most familiar and intuitive aspect of Sekiro. It is the additonal use of the grappling hook, prosthetic tools, and to a lesser extent consumables that throw me off.
    
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IsoSpandy@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Sekiro is one of my all time favorite games and I find it to be quite fun. I think you are struggling because you consider yourself to be a souls borne veteran and approaching the game with that mentality. The primal urge to roll away is the biggest holdup in my opinion. Get in there and parry any attacks you can except the danger ones. Also, get mikiri counter ASAP.

After you have beaten Geni, you will get some sort of hangof the general timings of the game, but true understanding can only be attained after beating sword saint isshin.

Just hang in there, my first playthrough was hard as hell, but now I am at new game 13, sometimes I go through 2 new game cycles in a single day.

Pro tip, grab as much booze as you can and give them to as many people as you can for that juicy lore.

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- CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Oh no worries, I should clarify that I’m not finding the game to be too difficult. If anything, it’s been kind of easy because I got the combat down pretty quickly. I haven’t been dying to bosses very often at all until I hit that second Owl fight.
  
  As crazy as NG+ 13 is, I don’t think I’m going to go through it again for NG+. Even with the higher difficulty enemies, I just think the combat is almost too straightforward.
  
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  - IsoSpandy@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Ohh so you reached the flow state. I would recommend doing atleast one more NG cycle for the Shura ending as it has one more boss, and it’s quite bitter sweet. And hey, everyone has different tastes. Just happy to share my thoughts with another patient gamer.
    
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discostjohn@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I really like Sekiro. It’s one of my favorite games and easily my favorite FromSoft game. If you’re almost done with it and you’ve only struggled with two bosses, you might not be enjoying it because you’re too good at it.

I feel like it’s almost entirely fair, which I appreciate. I like the setting and the exploration. I like that it’s sort of short and contained. And I like how all the bosses have unique challenges to deal with.

And Genichiro is one of the best boss battles of any game I’ve ever played

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- CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  That is indeed a decent boss battle. But I do think the game has a wide range of battles. Most of the sword battles are great, I really liked the first Owl fight. But the other fights? They kind of feel like filler at times.
  
  I will say that the game is mostly fair but I’ve died a fair bit to some things beyond my control. The camera in particular is a real struggle at times particularly when fighting indoors.
  
  As for me being too good, I actually think that’s probably fair. The Genichiro fight I think I cleared on my first or second attempt. The other bosses mostly were 10 attempts or less. The only one that has given me trouble so far is the second Owl fight that took me dozens on dozens of attempts. And the fire demon doesn’t seem so easy.
  
  Even then though maybe I’ve played too many souls games. They don’t feel as fresh anymore. Like being honest I don’t think the world design is all that great in Sekiro when comparing to bloodborne or DS3. Same with enemies. I can’t really name too many places from Sekiro that have stuck with me or feel different. Whereas with dark souls; Anor Londo will be seared into my brain along with various swamps and boss arenas. But hey, at least the story is great in sekiro so it’s got that in spades.
  
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  - discostjohn@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    I’m surprised you even found the second owl fight on your first run. The Demon of Hatred is a tough one for sure, but people say he’s the most dark soulsy boss in the game. It wasn’t obvious to me, but there’s actually a way to reliably avoid his charge, and it doesn’t involve dodging.
    
    A really tough boss is the spear wielder with his sword pal at the Ashina Reservoir idol during the third act of the game. Fighting them 2v1 is a true test of skill.
    
    A few of my friends and I were really into the game, and we had a blast streaming our playthroughs and watching each other. The only one of us who didn’t think much of the game also didn’t consider it much of a challenge, though he extensively used Shinobi prosthetics, mortal draw, consumables, and even guides. I can imagine how the game might not live up to its reputation if you’re able to just plow through it and not feel the sense of accomplishment that can only come from finally beating each boss after they’ve stomped you into the ground a dozen times.
    
    I hope you enjoy the last boss and it makes the game seem worth it, or maybe you give it another go using one of the items that cranks up the difficulty, and you find some joy in that. I just think it’s a special game, and I want everyone to love it as much as I do.
    
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starman2112@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
It seems to me that Sekiro is most enjoyed by people who didn’t like the rest of the Fromsoft lineup. I’m finding the combat less dull than Bloodborne’s, primarily because I’m taking an active role by parrying instead of dodging all the time. I find the parrying very rewarding, in the sense that it tickles that part of my brain that likes the shiny flash and the TING

is it just the fast paced combat and grappling hook that helps it?

That, the simplified leveling system, the lack of a stamina bar, the healing gourd having a ton of uses between rests, and the resurrection mechanic. There’s a lot of little things about this game that makes it easier than a typical Fromsoft game, without making it trivial. It’s the perfect level of challenging for me personally

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Onyxonblack@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I definitely enjoyed the game. It is also one of the only games I ever hunted and got all the achievements for… that said, there is a darker side to this story. This particular game helped me ruin two different controllers by wearing out the parry button. And also, alongside the game Hades, it truly wrecked my thumbs and hands (arthritis). I can barely game with controllers anymore at all.

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- CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Sorry to hear that but I can definitely understand why that would happen lol. That button is getting a lot of action.
  
  Have you figured out any way to mitigate the arthritis issue? I know there are accessibility controllers out there to help with that. Would hate to hear that it causes you to play games less if that’s the case.
  
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Doom@ttrpg.network ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
how I feel about all souls games. Sekiro had the aesthetic I liked more and still didn’t finish it. I just find them boring

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keksi@sopuli.xyz ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I think Sekiro is good, but not fun in sense that it would be relaxin game, it is fun that when i manage down a boss it feels like achievement.

Sekiro is first game for me that is said to be like “Dark Souls game”. And only played it thru once.

I do think Sekiro fighting is good, after I played Sekiro next was Ghost of Tsushima, and damn it was hard, could not get parries. I think in Sekiro they are better telegraphed or something. I remember there was some loading screen tip in Sekiro that said something like “to parry press block button when enemy hit would land” and it was good, tip, on Ghost it did not work at all. But take that out of backbone after playing Sekiro. God Of War (2017, and Ragnarock) games, is all other ball again, but among these games I think Sekiro’s combat is best. It feels responsive, dare i say, fair.

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- CleoTheWizard@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  I’ll be honest, that may be one of the issues. I found about 90% of Sekiro to be easy for a souls game. Most bosses I attempted 10 times or less. Until the last few bosses I had no issues so maybe I just find it boring because I don’t die very often?
  
  But even the hard fights didn’t feel like huge achievements because I knew the very next boss was 5 minutes away. Maybe the game is a bit too boss heavy for my tastes, I don’t know.
  
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droporain@lemmynsfw.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Sekiro boring, irritating, unimaginative. -best enemy giant black cock. Notable mention butthole monster. Did not finish, would not recommend.

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Katana314@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I have not played Sekiro, but I have played an indie knockoff called Kanagi Usagi, so I’m basing my understanding on that.

From how it felt, the health bars are a decoration and the real boss health is poise. I get what they were going for, but it causes a lot of stress for any interruption like healing or long enemy attacks that cause their poise to regenerate, feeling like your effort and time was wasted.

A game I liked better in every respect was Another Crab’s Treasure. You build poise even just by hold-blocking, but your “shield” is a limited resource; one you can choose to invest in with RES. It keeps the idea of encouraging you to keep pressure, by building poise damage on regular attacks, but also punishes you for dodge-rolling as a default for every attack (you’ll never get a “capsize”).

And yeah, ACT is a bit easier; but I’d say its chosen level of difficulty made it a more enjoyable game.

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