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Comment on Infamous $30 Logitech F710 called out in $50M lawsuit over Titan sub implosion

mctoasterson@reddthat.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

Since the story came out people fixated on “lol he used a shitty gaming controller” but really that is one of the least sketchy design choices in the entire rig. Why reinvent the wheel and make a custom set of controls that are realistically another huge expense and potential failure point, when off the shelf solutions exist for that component?

The corners that were cut are the ones involving the viewport/nose adhesion to the ships frame, and the structural integrity of the carbon fiber hull itself. They had test data suggesting it was a bad idea to engage in repeated dives with their design, and an even worse idea to operate at the depths they chose. They decided to ignore that.

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rob_t_firefly@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
That doesn’t explain why they used the wireless version of that Logitech instead of wired to control the thing they were literally inside.

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- Greg@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  To be fair, they’re under water and sharks have been known to chew through electrical cables
  
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  - Tricky@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I suspect the wired cabling would be to control components inside the sub, not outside. And I say that only because it’s unlikely that wireless signals would penetrate the sub walls.
    
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    Greg@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yes but with this sub the water was on the inside too
    
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    SaltySalamander@fedia.io ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Too dense to pick up on the obvious sarcasm, I see.
    
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  - Cocodapuf@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Electrical cables inside submarines?
    
    That’s hardcore.
    
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    gedhrel@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Have you seen pictures of the sub? What makes you think the wiring was all hidden?
    
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- helenslunch@feddit.nl ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The same reason you use the wireless version of any controller.
  
  If you run into issues you can simply plug in any wireless controller.
  
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- Angry_Autist@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  they were building for billionaire pleasure trips, they’d HAVE to go with the no-wires aesthetic.
  
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Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
From what I can tell the lawsuit (which is against Ocean Gate, not Logitech) is really just calling out the controller as another example of willfully negligent behaviour.

You’re certainly correct that the actual cause of the failure was the carbon fibre hull. Just a terrible idea on so many levels. Carbon fibre, by its nature, is good under tension, not compression. It was never going to function well as a pressure vessel underwater.

There were a litany of terrible decisions made by Ocean Gate, such as not tethering the sub, because it was cheaper to launch it from a towed raft, but none of those bad decisions ultimately mattered once that pressure vessel failed. Those people were dead so fast that, to quote Scott Manley, “You go from being biology to being physics.”

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- buttfarts@lemy.lol ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  You can always bring a second controller for redundancy. I would bet money the game controller had zero impact on the failure and I hate all the shade being thrown on this innocent controller.
  
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  - Angry_Autist@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    That game controller has terrible range, zero compatibility with any other device, and randomly adds inputs when the controller is more than 2 feet away from the receiver. It is reasonable to consider if uncontrolled movement contributed to the implosion, or a loss of control at a critical moment preventing return to the surface.
    
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  - Cocodapuf@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.
    
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  - Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    In the context of the lawsuit it’s definitely a valid thing to bring up, mostly because it helps you tell the story to the jury. But yeah, in practice it probably didn’t represent much of a hazard on its own (though it almost certainly wasn’t fire rated)
    
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chatokun@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Having tried to use those, my main issue was the 710 is an unreliable 2.4ghz wireless, when bluetooth controllers all worked much better for me. I couldn’t get the 710 to have reliable button presses from more than like 4 feet from my pc, so I ended up just using the 310 wired. Maybe there isn’t enough interference on the sub for that to be an issue.

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- piecat@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There’s going to be no external interference when you’re under water. Sea water makes an excellent em shield
  
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  - deranger@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    True, but that’s hardly an endorsement for their safety. Wireless should never be used for critical life support equipment. It is mind bogglingly stupid they did this.
    
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A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Wasnt the carbon fiber body rated for like, 1/3rd the depth that they dove to?

It was very NASA O-Ring vibes. “We did it once, so we can do it every time” at least until they cant anymore, and that cant is usually accompanied by regret and poor innocent people being salsafied.

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- Duamerthrax@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Carbon fiber wasn’t rated for any depth. It’s shit for compression and you don’t need light materials for a submersible.
  
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  - A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    No, you’re right… I think it was the winshield bubble that was rated for 1/3rd the depth? I know something was rated for a far shallower depth than what the dumbass CEO made the sub repeatedly go to.
    
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    Duamerthrax@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Also, these materials compress at different rates.
    
    An off the shelf controller wasn’t a terrible idea, but of course it was blue tooth and had pairing issues on previous trips
    
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deranger@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Using commercial off the shelf technology without proper testing and certification is absolutely cutting corners. See Kaprun disaster.

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- mox@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  Using commercial off the shelf technology without proper testing and certification is absolutely cutting corners. See: Kaprun disaster.
  
  I just read the wikipedia article; thanks for mentioning it.
  
  I’m not sure it’s a good example of your point, though. Notably:
  
  the cause was the failure, overheating and ignition of a fan heater in the conductor’s compartments which was not designed for use in a moving vehicle.
  
  The onboard electric power, hydraulic braking systems, and fan heaters intended for domestic use increased the likelihood of fire.
  
  The fan heater is the only off-the-shelf technology listed here, and there’s no suggestion that it was part of the train’s design. It seems likely that a train conductor brought it on board to keep the compartment warm through the workday. Still a bad idea, but not an example of the designers cutting corners.
  
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  - deranger@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    It’s an example of uncertified consumer grade COTS equipment used in a commercial environment to disastrous results, outside of its original designed purpose.
    
    It was not brought on board by the conductor or someone else, it was permanently installed in place of commercial grade heaters they couldn’t source.
    
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    Scrollone@feddit.it ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Wow. That’s creepy in a fascinating way. Cutting corners cost lives, and this is a perfect example.
    
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  - llii@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    It was not a train conductor that brought it with him, it was build into the train by the train manufacturer. See this page: 155.at/der-heizluefter/
    
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    mox@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    it was build into the train by the train manufacturer.
    
    What makes you think the train manufacturer did it? Is that on record someplace? Because the installation and materials don’t look at all like the surrounding work. Looks more like a handyman hack job.
    
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- billiam0202@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  The requirements of deep sea submersibles and spacecraft are quite similar.
  
  Image
  
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- pixely@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Exactly this. When you procure custom hardware, you’re paying (a lot) for the vendor to ensure that each unit meets the specifications you provide. If you validate off the shelf hardware like this, there is no guarantee that another batch of the same sku will also meet your requirements. Imagine training on these controllers then a certain batch of them has wildly different sensitivity.
  
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Angry_Autist@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Dude, the F710 is legitimately a terrible controller with a tiny range and a manufacture flawed nano receiver. I mean it’s not the steepest corner they cut but you can get a rock solid drone remote with ridiculous range for barely twice the price of an f710.

It was a stupid choice that they actively ignored the results. Like i said, ANYONE who uses this controller for more than an hour will directly experience how terrible it is.

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BastingChemina@slrpnk.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Using off the shelve components is not an issue, even NASA does it but they have very precise procedures on how to select them.

https://www.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cots.pdf

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- Angry_Autist@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  This particular model of controller is notoriously terrible, unreliable, and prone to contact failure. Anyone reading the amazon reviews would know it wasn’t even a good choice as a player2 little brother controller.
  
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auzy@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Weren’t they using it wirelessly too?

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phoenixz@lemmy.ca ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Add to that that the carbon fiber and metal nose shrink at different rates under pressure. That adhesive litteraly was being torn apart at depth

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mojofrododojo@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
using a wireless controller to manage life critical functions is the acme of stupidity.

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- buttfarts@lemy.lol ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It’s not managing life critical functions, that’s a computer. The game controller plugs into the computer. The great thing about that is that you can bring a second (or even a third) for redundancy.
  
  It’s just that the engineering choices that caused the failure are difficult to understand or communicate in sentence so the game controller is something any idiot can harp on about and sound smart.
  
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  - mojofrododojo@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    he game controller is not managing life critical functions
    
    oh, it doesn’t control ascent and descent, angle of attack, etc? it’s not used to turn or operate the craft, that’s all ‘done by computer’?
    
    pfft.
    
    bluetooth and other wireless interface protocols aren’t meant for life critical applications. give me a hardwired input - even a game controller - any day when it comes to life or death shit.
    
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