You know who actually want women-only spaces?
Women.
Comment on Mona: Australia women's-only museum files appeal to keep men out
TheControlled@lemmy.world 6 months ago
There shouldn’t be such thing as gender x only spaces. Or race, or sexuality. The women aren’t wrong about their points, but that doesn’t make it an acceptable or thankfully, legal thing to do. I’m sure the guy who sued them did it for all the wrong reasons though. Both sides seem a bit slimy.
refalo@programming.dev 6 months ago
Ookami38@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
What about a space for rape victims, male or female? Spaces for survivors of things, people dealing with things, etc. are fine, and if those things only touch women, it’ll naturally only be women, or men who are (let’s argue good faith, here) trying to support someone else. Rape isn’t a female only problem, and so segregating it artificially may feel like a good idea at first glance, but creates other issues.
What about a space for black cop abuse survivors? I’d think that’s pretty inappropriate. It’ll already be mostly black, for sure, and a lot of that perspective will come through, but it’s not a black only issue.
Kacarott@feddit.de 6 months ago
I think the intent behind a safe space is that it is separated from potential triggers. So people who were abused by a man may wish to be in a space with no men, since the sight of men might bring up past trauma. Same for people abused by women. Putting men and women together, even though they have all experienced abuse, may still be exposing them all to the same triggers they want to avoid.
Sethayy@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
But of course none of that really makes sense in a museum specialising on controversy
SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 6 months ago
So we need a space for women abused by men, women abused by women, men abused by men, men abused by women, and people abused by mascots.
lud@lemm.ee 6 months ago
Maybe that makes sense for a party in someone’s home or whatever, but not in a museum.
No one goes to a museum to feel safe, because it is you know, a museum and not a safe house or something. If someone is so incredibly scared of the other half of humanity so they can’t go to a museum where they are allowed, they probably should go to therapy or stay at home instead of a museum.
Ookami38@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
Yeah, I understand the intent. And it is a good intent, one of those “seemingly good ideas” I mentioned. There are still HUGE problems with it, particularly depending on how broad and public the group is.
I can agree to a need for a safe place in order to get past trauma. The issue is one of equal access and quality, I think. Specifically for something like sexual assault, I can easily imagine there being a lot of instances where there are only women-only groups available. In a way, situations like this, where we need a safe space for one group, can deprive the other group of safe spaces.
If we want to keep segregated spaces for things like this, fine, but there has to be some equality of access. If not with your specific group, then having a network with other groups, for instance. This is a huge, complicated topic with a lot of possibilities and nuance, and is a bit past the point of this post. The purpose of my previous comment was to refute the obvious strawman of the last commenter, equating an art installation to safe spaces for sexual assault survivors.
Seasoned_Greetings@lemm.ee 6 months ago
Men and women are not the same. Rape is experienced differently for men and women. I’m not saying it’s worse for one than the other, but it literally involves that person’s genitals and is an intensely personal and gender specific thing.
The fact that you would lump male and female rape survivors together says a lot about how little experience you actually have with the subject.
There’s nothing wrong with having male-only rape survivor groups, especially if someone going through that trauma feels threatened by the other gender.
TheControlled@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Museums are usually pretty safe spaces. Sorry you went through that and that trauma is is with you.
I’m a man, and also a victim of sexual assault from a man.
This isn’t the way.
Sethayy@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
Man I hate to say it but cutting off 50% of the population due to trauma is a tauma response and solely that.
Its horrible you ever had to go through that and not even knowing you personally if I had a time machine to help I would; but that was one bad person, not a bad populace.
Seasoned_Greetings@lemm.ee 6 months ago
On the other side of that, you can’t force something just because you’ve identified it as a trauma response. Deciding that women shouldn’t feel threatened by men (or the other way around) for them and taking away spaces they feel safe isn’t constructive, it’s cruel.
Sethayy@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
Never did I say we should actively punish people for their trauma, I just simply mean we shouldn’t punish others for it either.
And a museum centred around controversy sounds like the last place for healthy healing
TheControlled@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Nah, best to blame men forever and call it.
Peddlephile@lemm.ee 6 months ago
I’m all for segregation spaces as long as essential spaces are open to all such as hospitals, parks etc. There are women only gyms where I am and I used to go to them because I felt safer and more comfortable.
TheControlled@lemmy.world 6 months ago
This is a slippery slope to things you wouldn’t want to be excluded from, if this appeal wins and creates precident to make much worse places. Thinking this is a feminist battle is narrow minded, selfish, and will absolutely backfire.
Peddlephile@lemm.ee 6 months ago
But the idea is that everyone can open their own and run it by the rules they want. If you or a group don’t like how one thing is run, there is freedom to open up the same thing but make it open for all. This museum is a private one, rather than run by the government, and therefore they can do what they like. The government ones should be open to all because they are elected by the public.
I’m not at all in favour of forcing everyone to comply to uniformity for the sake of inclusivity but I’m all for ensuring that there are spaces available that are inclusive and that there’s freedom to operate how you like, provided that it doesn’t hurt anyone.
jwt@programming.dev 6 months ago
So what you’re saying is I can open up a place, put a sign in front with ‘Irish need not apply’ and water fountain inside that says ‘colored only’, and that should be legal according to you?
TheControlled@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Antidiscrimination law apply everywhere, regardless whether it’s government or public or private. Otherwise America would still have Jim Crow. The laws that stop that stop this too, for the same reason. Discrimination is wrong, full stop. I don’t give a fuck if women want their own spaces, be my guest, but barring people you don’t want and then crying about it is moronic.
I’ve been to lesbian bars with my sister and even though my sister is gay, I got glared at, got scoffs, and sighs. I could tell I wasn’t wanted. It kinda pissed me off, but whatever, I was there to drink with my sister and have fun. Imagine if that was a women only bar and my sister couldn’t bring me. Then imagine all the other lesbian bars my sister wanted to bring me too (because she liked them!) were the same. You get my point. I don’t want to live in that world. Some people do and I say, fuck those nearsighted fools.
rickyrigatoni@lemm.ee 6 months ago
Next we can half separate but equal water fountains for coloreds and whites.
Peddlephile@lemm.ee 6 months ago
I would consider water fountains to be part of public infrastructure and essential, and therefore doesn’t fit into the model that I’m putting forward.
I’m not proposing that essential things like roads, water etc. are segregated but, rather, private businesses can choose how they operate. The risk is public backlash and hurting the bottom line and other businesses can choose to be open and accepting.
For example, queer bars vs het bars. It’s not segregated per se, but a business can choose how they want to operate to draw in the customers they want.
SomeGuy69@lemmy.world 6 months ago
From now on, men have decided to declare every build and every bridge, build by men, to be men only. Build your own stuff please. /s
Peddlephile@lemm.ee 6 months ago
Infrastructure is, and should be, government run so that wouldn’t work with the model I’m proposing.
KISSmyOSFeddit@lemmy.world 6 months ago
So there shouldn’t be girls’ locker rooms either?
hitmyspot@aussie.zone 6 months ago
Why do we need girls locker rooms when we’ve had the technology for mixed gender locker rooms for generations? We call them doors and use them even in single gender bathrooms.
Certainly it’s inappropriate for sexual predators to be able to leer at girls or women, but there I also no need to have a lack of privacy from those of the same gender, if that’s what people wish.
BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Locker rooms are a little different than bathrooms.
refalo@programming.dev 6 months ago
Apparently you’ve never been in a locker room before.
iegod@lemm.ee 6 months ago
Modern locker rooms can be built with individual stalls so I understand the point being made. Personally though, it’s less efficient to have a locker room with multiple single-serve rooms. Extra material, extra cost, decreased functional area, additional readying time. If you use a locker room frequently you know how invaluable all those things are.
akakunai@lemmy.ca 6 months ago
I mean, I can see where you’re coming from but locker rooms are a significant part of sport.
Comradery is built in locker rooms and they are where young athletes spend a large portion of their sporting time. This is especially true for certain sports needing significant prep time like (ice) hockey.
With young people already facing a loneliness crisis, we don’t need to be isolating them further to solve a non-problem.
Sethayy@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
Got this one from tumblr but its something along the lines of we go to the bathroom to shit, not have some special women fun time in there.
If there was a way to have my own room entirely without anyone else that’d be 100% preferred, but gender is the last thing im thinking about when someone’s peeking down the cracks of my stall
Iceblade02@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Idk, everytime I go partying with friends it definitely seems like womens bathrooms are a communal activity.
Sethayy@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
Though I can’t really see a party being the best representation for the populace no?
madcaesar@lemmy.world 6 months ago
But who was nuance 🤔
feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world 6 months ago
You know that’s exactly what they think.
intensely_human@lemm.ee 6 months ago
I disagree. I love my men-only spaces.
Kacarott@feddit.de 6 months ago
I didn’t read into this particular issue, but I know the museum in question, have been there a couple times, so some context:
So it doesn’t surprise me at all that the museum is trying to be women only, but I really doubt it will be permanent, and I suspect that the strong public reactions is exactly the point.
TheControlled@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I kind of suspected this. Usually forseeble controversy like this is a ploy, especially with art and art spaces.
TassieTosser@aussie.zone 6 months ago
Depends on how much money the exhibit draws. Iirc the Wall of Vaginas was supposed to be temporary but it’s still up as far as I know.