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Comment on Another 62 ‘Girls Do Porn’ Victims Sue Pornhub for $600 Million

Given their videos were so highly ranked, the prevalence of coercion in the industry, and the fact that it's often impossible to tell if someone's been threatened behind the scenes, it's highly likely that most people reading this who have watched porn online have also watched plenty of videos of actual rapes.

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anarchy79@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I wonder how many products you’ve bought in your life were made by child labor.

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- ClockworkOtter@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  There is no ethical consumption under capitalism
  
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  - Hyperreality@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Which is why I dislike people who attack those critical of capitalism's excesses for being hypocrites.
    
    It's easy to be a saint in paradise. In the real world, most of us are hypocrites and part of the problem. That doesn't mean we can't try to be better or be critical of things that are bad about society.
    
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    ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Complaining about a system you’re stuck in doesn’t make you a hypocrite for being stuck in it
    
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    kava@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I’ll eat meat that comes from large scale animal torture, my taxes have paid for bombs to kill civilians, I’ve spent money on countless products that exploit an untold amount of people. My country is one that benefits from resource extraction of the third world.
    
    I get to live in relative opulence while billions have a fraction of the quality of life I do.
    
    At the end of the day, I just accept these things and continue to live my life.
    
    I’ve always seen myself as a good person. But I figured I can’t be a good person and do all that. That mismatch in identity caused me to re-evaluate my position. Turns out I’m not actually willing to give up anything from above. So I’m probably a bad person.
    
    That way there’s no hypocrisy.
    
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    scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    The main problem with criticisms of capitalism Is that they don’t include “trying to be better.” As in: practical solutions. I think many of us use “capitalism” as a dark hole we can shove all the blame into. But no one ever has any realistic suggestions for change. There are plenty of fantasy ideas. Anarcho-syndicalism will save us if we overthrow the world order tomorrow!
    
    I understand it’s a deeply embedded system and not simple to do away with. But just using it as a scapegoat constantly without any actual plan or will to depart from it is in fact an empty approach.
    
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    ClockworkOtter@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Indeed. You can know that your own life is dependant on the exploitation of others whilst working to make that less so.
    
    I have to. The alternative is death.
    
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  - scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I find this word brought out all the time and used as a scapegoat for us to pile all our sins onto and then stone it to death. It’s not us, it’s capitalism!
    
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    Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    It’s not about piling your sins on a scapegoat, it’s about being realistic. One CANNOT live ethically if you consider the sins of whatever company they’re buying from the sins of the consumer.
    
    The broader goal of saying there’s no ethical consumption under capitalism is saying, “hey this system is flawed, and we’re all perpetuating it. Let’s acknowledge that so we can work together better it.”
    
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- Hyperreality@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Do two wrongs make a right?
  
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  - Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Of course two wrongs don’t make a right, but get off the high horse and join your fellow man against the proper targets instead of fighting people who should be allies. That’s the point they’re making with their tu quo que.
    
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- ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I guess it would depend on if the person wears clothing or not
  
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  - PainInTheAES@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I practice ethical nudism 😎
    
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- scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Not to mention the animal suffering we’re all responsible for with all our soaps and cosmetic products being sprayed into their eyes and rubbed into their skin to make sure it’s safe for us. And while I believe animals can be raised for meat humanely and ethically, they’re very often not.
  
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Arotrios@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I avoid this by not watching porn that makes me sad. There's plenty of consensual, happy, joyful sex-positive porn out there.

While your point is valid about this particular situation (which is horrible and criminal on multiple levels), your overbroad generalization of porn and the implied assumption of guilt in the viewers is what's led folks to react negatively to your statement.

On a larger level, this kind of statement plays into the puritanical doctrines towards sex that paint it as a negative force, and subsequently leads to the twisting of a positive, creative act into a negative expression of power and rape in those that accept those doctrines.

Porn is not at fault here, nor are its viewers. Those at fault in this crime are the producers and publishers, who were well aware of the abuses happening under their watch, and deceived their viewers into believing they were observing consensual performance acts. I hope that these women get every cent and more, and it would be excellent to see a class action suit from Pornhub's subscribers arise in tandem to and in support of their complaint.

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- RaoulDook@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Exactly, it’s not too hard to find videos where you can see by their faces and sounds that they’re having a good time. If they’re not then it’s a turn off
  
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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  That works for you but a lot of people get off on the “dominating” side of things, especially women.
  
  I’m like you, I hate that kind of stuff so I’m pretty sure I’ve never gotten off to it, but it’s popular for a reason.
  
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onlinepersona@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Alright, get rid of your phone. Everyone who bought a diamond is evil too. Do you love chocolate? You monster! Children most likely collected that. Clothes? My dear boy, you are supporting the exploitation of third world poors. Did you buy cheap veggies? Bloody psycho, you might as well be standing with a gun over the hordes of immigrants picking most of those for unliveable wages. Go to the cinema, watch a video on youtube, or listen to music on spotify, or vote for a conservative? How dare you support industries that have known child molesters, wage slaves, lobby for worse living standards, donate to hate groups, and and and?

“Oh, but that’s involuntary, I need those to survive”. Do you? Do you really? Did you need to buy a new phone? Is chocolate really necessary? Why don’t you pick your own fruit? Music, video, and other pleasures aren’t necessary to survive either.

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- winter@slrpnk.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  That’s a lot of words for “I know, but I really don’t want to give up my porn 😭”
  
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  - onlinepersona@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Nice way to justify buying another iPhone.
    
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- Hyperreality@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Do you have an argument other than a tu quoque?
  
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- LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  So you’re fine with the fact that you’ve almost certainly, essentially guaranteed to have, masturbated to a woman being raped? What the living fuck is wrong with you?
  
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  - Hylactor@sopuli.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    “Fine with” is probably too far. I think they’re pointing out that, for example, your phone contains cobalt which was likely mined unethically, perhaps by a child, perhaps resulting in their death. Is therefore buying a phone inherently wrong? Not essentially. Nor is porn inherently wrong. The abusers in these scenarios are in the wrong, not necessarily the end consumer.
    
    It could even be argued that rather than being some sort of monster for being unknowingly subjected to footage of a sexual assault, that the viewer is also now being harmed themselves.
    
    Furthermore, I’m not familiar with the “Girls Do Porn” channel/company/whatever but it sounds to me that the concept was porn created by women. Wether sound or not logically, the intent seemed ideally to be a safer porn environment, like reduced patriarchy flavored porn. So in this case the company responsible actively preyed on people trying to find a more consensual and equitable pornography.
    
    There is definitely a crime here, but it isn’t the horny guy cranking away in the privacy of his home.
    
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    Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Thank you. This is exactly the point I was making.
    
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    LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Its not impossible to research the porn you consume to ensure that you’re not getting off to someone being sexually abused or raped.
    
    My cell phone is something I require to access society. I cannot work without one, I cannot be a functional adult in society without one. I go every day without masturbating to women being sexually abused, and there is no reason whatsoever someone has to do that. It’s not the same at all, and its telling that men see “Please stop masturbating knowingly to women being raped” and immediately compare doing that with unethical consumption in general. It’s not comparable. I’m sorry, there really is nothing comparable to sexually pleasing yourself to a video of a woman being sexually abused. It makes me literally sick to my stomach that so many men are clearly totally fine with doing that.
    
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  - Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    It’s a legitimate criticism. Evil exists in every aspect of life. Direct your vitriol to the people who are actually responsible - those doing the raping, the nonconsensual filming, the other vile things that happen in the industry, and not the people who just consume. It’s for all intents and purposes impossible to guarantee as the consumer that ANYTHING you’re consuming is ethical. From sweatshops making your phone and clothes to scumbags doing vile shit to make porn.
    
    No one reasonable is comfortable with any of that. But I’m not going to bash the dude who’s just consuming rather than the top dogs making. It’s the same principle as climate control. It does NOTHING to target the consumer, they’re responsible for a negligible amount of the problem, and yet so many people are quick to point to “you didn’t do your part! You threw away instead of recycling! You drove a gas car!” Aim where it matters.
    
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    LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I will bash the dude knowingly consuming porn when he is aware that a non zero amount of is literally rape. I will also bash the rapists making it. Consuming porn isn’t like wearing clothes, or eating food. You do not need to consume unethical pornography.
    
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disposabletentacle@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
This is why I stick to hentai. No traficking or coercion or questionable consent there, just a bunch of nerds doing what they love.

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- _danny@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  [deleted]
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  - disposabletentacle@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    There's a ton of wholesome consensual adult-angled 2D stuff out there. Like a ton. The concept of hentai as all underage rape fantasy is a myth. Plus if I stumble across some unmoderated creepy stuff when I'm browsing new, I can just close it and move on without the burden of knowing I saw a real thing that happened to a real person.
    
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  - gentoo_biscuit@thelemmy.club ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Sure there’s content out there that depicts nasty abuse. But if it’s animated, then it’s fiction.
    
    I feel like whether the content is enjoyable/good is a personal opinion and the fact that anyone thinks it’s wholesome enough or not is irrelevant.
    
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    JoBo@feddit.uk ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    It’s a difficult area to research because it is impossible to know the direction of the causal arrow; predators may seek out the most violent porn, or sexual violence might be normalised by viewing it, and quite likely a bit of both. But you can’t just say that the production didn’t involve real people therefore no one is harmed.
    
    This is from an anti-porn site so clearly not neutral: Is There a Connection Between Violent Crime and Watching Porn?
    
    Very little of the evidence they cite tries to distinguish between violent porn and any porn but there are some snippets worth taking seriously [numbers in brackets are the references]:
    
    Not surprisingly, the more violent the porn they consume, the more likely they will be to support violence and act out violently. [18] In fact, one study found that those with higher exposure to violent porn were six times more likely to have raped someone than those who had low past exposure. [19]
    
    …
    
    A large portion of the porn consumed by millions of people every day is reinforcing the message that humiliation and violence are normal parts of what sex is supposed to be. [20] It’s wiring the minds and expectations of the upcoming generation, making it harder for many young people to prepare for loving, nurturing relationships [21] and leaving both women and men feeling like they can’t express the pain it’s causing them. [22]
    
    I don’t have the answer. I am not against porn in general. I am obviously against porn where performers have been coerced or mistreated (most of it, tbf) and I do think it is healthier to seek out porn which is explicitly consensual.
    
    Men who are interested in having real, consensual sex could probably do themselves a lot of favours by seeking out female porn directors who are making woman-friendly porn. And, given the link between watching sexual violence and doing sexual violence, whatever the direction of the causal arrow, if you don’t want to be that guy avoiding violent porn is probably a good idea.
    
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- Tick_Dracy@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  You don’t know if someone is being held hostage in a basement, and being threat to death in order to draw some pictures, while being whipped whenever they fail to meet the daily quota. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
  
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- DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Drawing shotacon, as Zeus intended.
  
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LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
But what is the prevalence of coercion in the industry? Is that known? Can it be known?

Most people I’ve heard speak about their experiences in the porn industry say this type of coercion is rare. GDP was a unique situation. Virtually everyone knew (or should have known) they were bad news for years before law enforcement got involved. I remember arguing with people about this. And actually one of the things people said was “who cares, this kind of thing is everywhere in the industry, they know what they’re getting into.” So I actually think that not only is there no evidence to support that, but this idea can even be harmful by painting the better behaved studios with a broad stroke, and giving the fewer bad actors somewhere to hide.

I think the best way to help sex workers, if this is something that concerns you, is to treat them with respect, call out the hateful stigma against their work, and support efforts to organize for worker protections. Despite the fact that most studios are not out there raping people left and right, like most industries, there is often a power imbalance between workers and owners and this sometimes leads to exploitation.

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Rengoku@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Sabe your fucking houlier than thou attitude for yourself.

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- Hyperreality@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
  
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  - Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Note they’re not attacking your argument at all, merely calling out the fact that you’re being a pretentious twat. Completely valid, both can be true. No tu quoque. Also it’s quite sophomoric to call out logical fallacies as a gotcha in an argument.
    
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  - Turun@feddit.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    You don’t actually have a “holier than thou” sentence in your comment, but
    
    one which a lot of people would rather deny, rather than admit their part in perpetuating it,
    
    Sure does come close. I think this is the reason why there are such negative reactions to your top level comment.
    
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    Hyperreality@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Meh. It's cognitive dissonance and vanity. We're all narcisstic to a certain degree.
    
    We all lie to ourselves that we're good people doing our best, at least to a certain extent. Tell someone they're not, point out the specific ways that they're horrible (because they're human), and they're forced to reconcile these two contradictory pieces of information. Invariably people act emotionally and lash out.
    
    It's predictable. As I said, it's a reality a lot of people would rather deny than admit.
    
    I think you need to lie to yourself at least some of the time, or you'd kill yourself. Lie to yourself too much, and you become president.
    
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- LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I don’t understand, are you saying that not being okay with watching porn of a woman being raped is somehow a pretentious position? What are you on?
  
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  - Rengoku@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Your comprehension is 0
    
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loopedcandle@lemmynsfw.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I am a regular consumer of online porn. And I’ll admit, I loved their videos. Now knowing what was going on, that’s on me to do some thinking, i have probably watched a rape and helped the perpetrator make money from that act. That’s hard on the conscience. I don’t know what to think about it.

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- Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  The fault lies squarely on the shoulders of the producers. You hold as much guilt for that action as anyone who has ever purchased a cell phone has for the conditions for the workers are subjected to. Which isn’t to say 0, but it’s so small that it may as well be.
  
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- eatthecake@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Really? You don’t know how to feel about jerking off to rape? I know how to feel about you. POS.
  
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  - Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Cool, I know what to think about you. Irrational and judgemental.
    
    You’re really going to place blame at a dude who just saw what was, presumably, some good, legal porn on a legitimate source, freely available to anyone? Rather than the producers? Or in anywhere near equal measure? Enough to call them a piece of shit? Man I’m glad I don’t know you.
    
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    eatthecake@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Not all.of us see porn as necessary or useful. Let alone a right. Yall are pathetic addicts in my eyes. And you are absolutely responsible for ensuring that the porn you watch is adult and consensual.
    
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  - barsoap@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Charitable comment of the decade right tere.
    
    Noticed how they said “what to think”, not “how to feel”?
    
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    loopedcandle@lemmynsfw.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Jeez. I know how to feel about the act itself. It’s awful of course. What I don’t know is how to deal with is knowing that I did that. I can’t change what I did and I can try my damnedest to not do it again. But how should I deal with knowing what I did and the guilt and shame post facto.
    
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    eatthecake@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I doubt they have empathy, i also doubt the average porn watcher has empathy. Women have been screaming for years that the sex industry is abusive but we are howled down by the sex positive marketing industry. Its all about the money and men will pay for rape happily.
    
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Son_of_dad@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Hate their videos, most of the girls always look bored or not into it, which is now clear why. That’s why there’s a rise in homemade, Indy models and couples putting up the best videos recently, cause you can tell the people involved are actually into it and enjoying it.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  These things move in cycles.
  
  People want amateur porn.
  
  Companies don’t.
  
  Amateur porn rises until it gets purged, then a few years later it rises again.
  
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Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I think the bigger problem is, you as a consumer have no way of knowing. And it’s SO prevalent, that yeah, you almost certainly have. But I can’t really know, or do much as a consumer. Don’t make it like the people just watching are the ones perpetuating the problem instead of the ones who are producing this shit.

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- Son_of_dad@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I can always kind of tell. Half those videos the girls look straight up scared and not enjoying it
  
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  - Ookami38@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I can’t say for sure if I’ve ever seen any of these videos, but I have seen some with similarly bored looking models. I tend to avoid them just on the basis of them being boring, but now I’ll reevaluate and… Frankly I don’t know what I can really do with the information, but we’ll cross that bridge another time.
    
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  - sin_free_for_00_days@sopuli.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Sounds like 99% of the Asian porn I run into. Big turn off.
    
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Kirkkh@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Wow the downvotes are really telling. You’re totally right — I’ve gravitated to supporting the girls directly with OF, I know that’s not perfect but it’s hopefully a safer direction.

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- jcit878@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I just can’t get behind (heh) OF personally. evey video I’ve ever seen has just looked like a tiktok/insta “influencer” having sex and it is just a massive turnoff for me. the lighting is just so off all the time. looks more produced than actual produced stuff. just doesn’t do it for me
  
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- Default_Defect@midwest.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Unfortunately, we can’t know for sure that OF models aren’t subject to similar abuse either, but its likely a safer bet.
  
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eatthecake@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I have never watched porn. Some would say that makes me inhuman but it can be done. Those of us with experience in the sex industry would never say ‘sex positive’.

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