This is beyond 99% of the population who just want it to work out of the box. This would be impossible with any apple hardware also.
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utopiah@lemmy.world 2 days ago
… or maybe we can finally decouple from OEM for OSes? Maybe could JUST buy a computer and not be forced an OS on it?
Sure I admit it feels nice to unwrap a new device, turn it on, set up few options and use it. Yet, the alternative it to turn it on, plug a USB drive on it, turn it on, set up few options, wait for 15min tops for installation to proceed and use it.
It’s actually a ~15min difference but it could bring so many good practices.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Panthenetrunner@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 days ago
I genuinely feel like there’s an appriciable percentage of the population that don’t even know that other operating systems exist. For whom Windows is “the computer” and for whom even Apple being a separate operating system is a difficult concept to grasp. If that’s truely the state technical literacy is in with a sizable slice of the population, then it’s quite the hurtle even explaining the basics of what Linux is. Let alone using it.
adespoton@lemmy.ca 1 day ago
Computers used to work this way.
You could even ship the computer with the USB stick pre-installed.
And this wouldn’t be impossible with Apple hardware; it has a bootloader built in that can boot from any functional and signed OS; could be Apple supplied, or something like Asahi. Or, with such a rule in place, they may also be required to not get in the way of installing other OSes and have to fully document the boot process and driver registration process, preventing signature-based lockdown completely.
utopiah@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Well 100% in fact as that’s NOT the definition of “out of the box”.
Chais@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
But then people would have to learn. That’s scawy 🥺
utopiah@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Learn about a tool that is basically in the middle of most of the crucial interactions in their lives? From receiving an email to vote, to booking an appointment to get a password, to working, to dating, to browsing an encyclopedia, to entertainment broadly, to creating music, to …?
I’ll stop there but yes, even though learning is scary I think if the safety net is clear enough (namely you just can’t mess up so badly your brand new computer won’t work) then it’s worth investing in.
Chais@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
You don’t need to convince me. I’m all for people having a basic understanding of the tools they use on a daily basis.
But my observation is that people seem predominantly opposed to the idea.echodot@feddit.uk 2 days ago
That’s like saying that everyone should become an electrician. It’s just not a practical expectation.
Asfalttikyntaja@sopuli.xyz 2 days ago
Most people today think computers like toasters, they don’t mind what OS they use or how to setup it. They want it to be ready to use right after they get it to the home. Similar as toasters or microwave ovens, you don’t expect to have to do any setup work for them. I don’t think it’s a good way to start using the computer, but unfortunately most people are that kind of people. That’s why Linux will never be the mainstream OS, no matter how hard you try to convince people to install and use it.
utopiah@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Linux will never be the mainstream OS
The SteamDeck prove that wrong, it’s already mainstream.
Samskara@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
Android has proven that wrong before.
Asfalttikyntaja@sopuli.xyz 2 days ago
But you see, you don’t need to install it yourself, it’s just a plug and play.
utopiah@lemmy.world 2 days ago
I don’t understand the argument. Linux already is mainstream since there are millions (number out of my ass, I don’t actually know) of devices people buy and “just” use Linux. Those clients are no tinkerers or developers, “just” gamers including I bet a significant proportion who are not even adults. My bet is when those people are asked “Are you using Linux?” they either don’t know, or don’t care, and yet when they finally realize they are actually using Linux daily they probably think “Wow, it’s not that complicated, it just works” and thus it will change mindsets at scale.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 2 days ago
I wouldn’t buy a car if I had to install my own engine or dashboard. “You selected the x322 dash. Here are your parts and a manual. Good luck!” It shouldn’t be surprising if 99% of the population doesn’t want a similar experience with their devices. PCs and such have become consumer devices, not hobbyist ones.
Asfalttikyntaja@sopuli.xyz 1 day ago
Exactly this.
quips@slrpnk.net 2 days ago
Linux for personal use can be undependable. I have a use case where I don’t mind configuring stuff, but once setup I need that shit to mf work every time all the time and it not working results in direct loss and depending on when potentially substantial loss. I say this as an avid linux user.
echodot@feddit.uk 2 days ago
Although in fairness Windows is not being particularly reliable in that regard as of late.
JcbAzPx@lemmy.world 2 days ago
That describes ever OS ever.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 2 days ago
if you run into stability issues on Linux the problem is either your distro or you.
badgermurphy@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Its really a shame every desktop distro has that problem, then.
Sometimes, you install updates, even on your LTS branch distro, and stuff gets really broken. You can roll back, but can sometimes have to fiddle with the computer to get it working enough to where you can do that.
If you’ve got a mission critical workflow, you essentially need 2 computers, regardless of the OS you’re using.
Katana314@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Case in point: Typing from a spare Surface Pro that I installed Ubuntu and some support drivers on for the touchscreen. Some update broke the touchscreen drivers, and I needed a keyboard and a lot of googling to repair them.
If this had happened on Windows, someone likely could’ve taken it to their repair shop or to Microsoft. Sadly, these days even Microsoft might’ve dropped any user aid.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 2 days ago
been running Debian trixie for the last year and had zero problems. previously on bookworm for two years still no problems.
before that I was on Almalinux for a year, zero problems.
and from 2014-2019 I was on Fedora, again no problems.
pre-2014 I was on some variant of distro just can’t remember that far back (probably some variant of redhat like centos).
sporadically I’ve used other distros like Mint, Ubuntu, Arch, BSD, Kali, Raspbian, etc. There were some stability issues with Mint and Ubuntu but everything else was rock solid.
For decades I have run and supported rhel, fedora, centos, debian, as servers.
like I said, it’s either the distro, or a skills issue. if you are having problems after updates, you have a package problem and should probably clean up your dependency tree/repos.
spicehoarder@lemmy.zip 1 day ago
Dead ass, just ship it with the latest Linux kernel, users can do the rest lol
Zink@programming.dev 1 day ago
PC OEMs could totally ship their machines with linux installed, or even with multiple distros to choose from at first boot. And one of those options could even be Windows 11, the user would just need to enter a key or buy a license after booting up.
It’s just a question of motivation. Do they think their customers want it, and do they expect Microsoft to make their life more difficult if they try?
Honestly now with so much of the civilized world looking to break dependency on US tech, I hope that Europe sees a big push towards mainstream off the shelf linux devices.
Zink@programming.dev 1 day ago
For most of us on Lemmy, buying a PC with no OS installed is like buying a car with an empty fuel tank and/or battery. It’s ready to preform at 100% in about 10 minutes.
For most other people, it feels more like buying a car that’s completely missing an engine/motor/battery. They don’t even know where to start, even though in the case of the PC the process is many orders of magnitude simpler.
utopiah@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Right, and to be clear I’m not suggesting to “just” buy a PC without an OS.
I’m suggesting both PC manufacturers and OS providers make an effort to facilitate that step.
One good example IMHO would be Raspberry Pi and its Imager. Yes you get your Pi but that’s not just it, you can get install Raspberry Pi OS … or Ubuntu, Apertis, RISC OS Pi, … but also media ones e.g. LibreELEC, OSMC, etc … or emulation with RetroPie, Batoccera.linux, … but still more with RaspAP, MoodleBox, … and countless others. You follow the steps thanks to a colorful GUI, put a microSD card in when prompted, wait, remove it, but in the SBC, boot and voila.
I’m not claiming it’s perfect or that anybody could do it but I believe it’s a good compromise ihelping people getting the OS they need if only they are genuinely ready to spend 10min for it.
utopiah@lemmy.world 1 day ago
In retrospect that whole value proposition is nuts.
The suggestion here is to spend 10min, let’s say 1h if the connection isn’t far and the USB stick (or microSD) is slow… for something you will then use for years onward. Typically one does NOT re-install an OS frequently unless they want to (e.g. tinkering quite a bit or distro-hoping).
echodot@feddit.uk 2 days ago
You can buy computers without an operating system installed on it but most consumers barely understand what a computer is and would think that a computer without an operating system was broken. So there never was much of a market and then Microsoft came along and paid the OEMs to install Windows.
Quite a few website will let you untick the windows 11 licence if you want to go your own way.
Unfortunately the Linux market is so fragmented that your average user is overwhelmed. This is not helped by the Linux community who in a general rule are not particularly accommodating towards novices.
iglou@programming.dev 2 days ago
Luckily this trend is shifting! More and more linux distros oriented towards users new to linux, and helpful communities.
reksas@sopuli.xyz 2 days ago
being asshole towards less technically adept people about linux should become something that gets you seriously shamed. that kind of behavior hurts ALL of us by reducing popularity of linux and this reducing developer interest in supporting linux, which also means less drivers for critical components which in turn might mean your pc just cant utilize linux.
Personally, i have issue of internet getting randomly cut off due to too old drivers for my network adapter/chipset/not sure. The motherboard i use is one of the latest there is. This issue has apparently persisted for years now, according to forum posts about it. -> Someone else would just return to windows because this is quite insuffreable even for me. But personally i’m happier with malfunctioning linux system than correctly working windows.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Omg yes. I’m considering going to linux at home for my next system but when I look at my options I can look at 10 sources and get 10 different recommendations. There are a million flavors of linux now. Every time I look into the subject I see a new flavor has been released. I also don’t want to get comfortable with one version only to find out it isn’t supported or updated a few years from now and have to switch. My goal is to use it, not to be a sys admin in my spare time.
I’m tech savvier than most people so even talking about linux to the avg person is like talking about nuclear physics. Usually when I read a story about, say, someone’s mom using it it is because some very skilled linux fan installed and set it up for them.
You get beaten up for just bringing these points up.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Apple IIs had the OS built into the ROMs.
ThomasWilliams@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Apple DOS was on a disk. There wasn’t really any OS, you operated the computer through the BASIC interpreter.
SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Applesoft was in ROM. The DOS was only for the disk controller. Without a disk drive I could still work the memory map, execute code, calls to locations, speaker calls, graphics control, load off of cassette, etc.
echodot@feddit.uk 2 days ago
Yeah I probably wouldn’t recommend getting an Apple II
mghackerlady@leminal.space 2 days ago
Where! Dell and Lenovo limit their linux options to a handful of laptops and their workstations, HP limits their linux options to a couple of their workstations, acer only provides windows, asus also only provides windows but is mainly a parts manufacturer so you could technically say you can buy an asus with no operating system. None of these provide a no operating system option (with the exception of maybe a few HP workstations that can be bought “linux ready”, but they don’t clarify what that means), requiring you to choose ubuntu and maybe RHEL on the super high end stuff. The only manufacturer I can think of with a definitive “No thanks, I’ll bring my own” esque-option is Framework, but only on their kits and not their pre-assembled models
Samskara@sh.itjust.works 2 days ago
I like buying hardware, that I know is supported by an operating system. Although that doesn’t always have a good result either. I bought a small Linux netbook with an ARM chip, that never received a kernel update because of incompatible drivers.
utopiah@lemmy.world 2 days ago
AFAIR that hasn’t been the case in most places for a while precisely because Microsoft made partnerships with OEMs to avoid that situation.
I believe new laws were added, e.g. in Europe, but I would be curious were this was the case. In fact I remember the opposite, namely that most computers one would buy always came with an OS, Windows for PC and MacOS for Apple computers. Even computers that one would buy in part that would be assembled for them from non OEM would also have the options to have an OS. In fact I’d be curious about example of fully assemble PCs, not just parts, that could be purchased without an OS before the law in the places where its the case now, would prove an OS-free option. Can you please share examples?
echodot@feddit.uk 2 days ago
The last place I saw it as an option was on the framework website.
utopiah@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Right but Framework is basically new, founded just in 2020. Also I believe most people who go on their website is precisely because of this kind of options. I don’t think, sadly, they are representative of the broader market.