Before Lemmy, I didn’t know it was possible to go so left that you hated liberals.
TORFdot0@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
This will probably be unpopular but the leftist - liberal infighting is my least favorite part of the fediverse and why I usually end up having to give people a warning before telling them to get on the fediverse.
This drama is kind of the epitome of that
reabsorbthelight@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
davel@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Corporate media didn’t want you to be exposed to any ideas outside of the Overton window.
reabsorbthelight@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Sometimes the further left extremes I’ve heard hear are indistinguishable from conservative Q-Anon. I legitimately need to check users post histories to understand which extreme they are on
davel@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
They are very clearly distinguishable, just not to you yet. Until recently, you’d only ever heard disagreements coming from your right, so you confuse disagreements coming from your left with them.
- ‘Horseshoe theory’ is nonsense – the far right and far left have little in common
- Are the far-left and far-right merging together? That’s what the ‘horseshoe theory’ of politics says, but it’s wrong
Liberalism in fact has more in common with fascism than socialism: they’re both capitalist ideologies. Previously.LeninWeave@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
I legitimately need to check users post histories to understand which extreme they are on
If you can’t tell the difference between “media owned by the wealthy reproduces their ideology” and Q-Anon, that might be a problem with you and not others.
BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
It’s very easy to distinguish if you actually act in good faith, which you clearly don’t
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Liberalism is supportive of capitalism, leftism begins at anti-capitalism. What did you think the left was before Lemmy?
lmmarsano@group.lt 2 weeks ago
Liberalism was the original leftism: see the French revolutionary National Assembly. It doesn’t intrinsically have anything to do with capitalism. In general, liberalism is neither left nor right. It promotes individualism. Historically, it progressed from humanism.
leftism begins at anti-capitalism
Not the political science definition.
General definitions & the historical development of liberalism are academic.
liberalism, political doctrine that takes protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual to be the central problem of politics. Liberals typically believe that government is necessary to protect individuals from being harmed by others, but they also recognize that government itself can pose a threat to liberty.
Some of the earliest liberal practices are found in the US Declaration of Independence, which predates the French revolution spreading the practice of liberal ideals throughout Europe. The US declaration pretty much rehashes core tenets of liberal philosophy
- inherent equality of individuals
- universal individual rights & liberties
- consent of the governed (governments exist for the people who have a right to change & replace them, & authority is legitimate only when it protects those liberties).
Note how capitalism isn’t mentioned anywhere: it’s nonessential. Capitalism predates & isn’t liberalism. Liberalism is moral & political philosophy, not an economic one.
The philosophy is a natural progression of humanist philosophies from the Renaissance through the Protestant Reformation & the Enlightenment that stress the importance of individuality, secular reasoning, & tolerance over dogma & subservience to unaccountable authority. To address unaccountable authority based on dogma & traditions, English & French philosophers defined legitimate authority based on humanist morality pretty much as expressed in the US declaration. They argued that political systems thrive better with limits & duties on authority & an adversarial system of institutional competition whether in separation of powers, adversarial law system with habeas corpus & right to jury trial, competitive elections, dialogue, or economic competition.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Liberalism arose as a bourgeois ideology to use against the feudalist systems, the equivalent in feudalism being the clergy and the church. The mode of production capitalism is based on individual ownership of capital, and claiming the labor-power sold by workers is equal in position to the capitalists buying the labor-power and selling commodoties.
Liberalism was left when feudalism was dominant. Putting it in its historical context, it helped overthrow feudalism. However, there is no “Absolute Idea” of Hegel, what was progressive at one point is still reactionary at a later point. In the era of capitalist decay, socialism is on the left, the progressive ideology.
Sharkticon@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Leftist vs liberal infighting has been going on since the late 1700s.
LeninWeave@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Liberals love to call it infighting because it allows them to take credit for all the progress that happened thanks to leftists. And yet they’re always on the right-wing side of those “infights”.
lmmarsano@group.lt 2 weeks ago
1700s
When the liberals were the leftists?
eah@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
I joined to talk about math and programming. It’s a letdown that this Podunk platform seems to consist mostly of the weirdest, loudest people who saw the political compass meme and took it way too seriously.
davel@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
We take politics so seriously that we don’t take the political compass meme the least bit seriously:
en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Political_Compass
dumples@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
Agreed. A bunch of general purpose instances with slight variations on ideology that are pretty much identical.
TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
yeah it sucks. it sucks balls.
i have to deal with it IRL. It lead to me quitting some things I used to love doing because I was so sick of psychos telling me if I am not a extremist leftist who is angry and outraged 24/7 I must be a fascist/zionist/pro-genocide/anti trans/bigot/blah blah blah.
Diva@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
you sound charming, I hope you stay away from those things for everyone else’s sake
LeninWeave@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
“I got kicked out of several places by people accusing me of being a bigot” is an incredibly comment to make, lmao.
hanrahan@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
I can’t think of any “leftist organisations” that support Zionism ? Maybe you’re confusing fascist with leftist ?
gigachad@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
I mean “leftist organization” is a weird term and I would more speak of currents. And there is definitely the Anrideutsche or Anti-Germans.
The German left, at least the loud one, is public ally dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussion. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
seeking_perhaps@mander.xyz 2 weeks ago
Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.
LeninWeave@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Seriously, imagine typing “there is often only ‘anti genocide and pro genocide’ in online discussions” and thinking “yes, I will post this and look like a very good and moral person”. Yes, if you’re not against genocide you’re for genocide. Yes, if you think supporting the resistance to genocide is antisemitic, you are a genocidal zionist. This type of “nuanced” “anti-zionism” (liberal zionism) is also widespread on feddit.org.
brognak@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Saying Hamas is antisemitic is sure fire sign of being a Zionist.
Palestinians are a semitic people.
If you want to saw that Hamas hates Jews, well, when your entire life has been being bombed by planes with stars of David on them, while jackbooted thugs with stars of David on their shoulder kick in your door to kidnap your family members in the night, and settlers with star of David necklaces show up and claim your home and land by divine right, I can start to see where you develop feelings toward the people who carry the same sign.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim as they are so fucking desperate to do.
7101334@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
You probably already know this, but Israel wants the world to be a more dangerous place for Jews to justify Israel’s illegitimate existence and aggression. That’s why they conducted terrorist attacks against Ethiopian Jews, to convince them that they needed to move to Israel as it’s the only safe place for them… where they’re then met by deep-rooted racism.
nat1@ttrpg.network 2 weeks ago
Antisemitic clearly means anti-Jewish. Sure it technically means all Semitic people, and as such a better word could have been used but it’s intended and in use meaning is very clear. Jewish people have been some of the biggest victims of Middle Eastern and European hate for thousands of years.
You’re doing the #AllLivesMatter of religious hate.
LeninWeave@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
This is all nonsense and you are indeed a zionist. Thank you for making it clear to everyone.
IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist.
gigachad@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
“Opposing Hamas makes you a Zionist”, can you confirm that statement?
Count042@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Spoken like someone that condemned the ANC as terrorists in the 80’s.
“Sure, apartheid is wrong, bit the people suffering it and fighting it are the worst” <— you.
Twongo@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
ask an anti german what they think of muslims in the middle east :) it’ll be the most misanthropic thing you heard all day. anti germans are disgusting zionists and need to be shunned from leftist places. they are pro-genocide and there is no nuance to it. they are not part of the left, just delusional cosplayers
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
What’s wrong with the term “leftist organization?” Educate, agitate, organize is the common saying, organizing is the fundamental task of leftists.
BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
“Is genocide bad? Who can say, it’s just so complex!”
JubilantJaguar@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Don’t be discouraged. Personally I don’t have the energy any more to endure the abuse of the mob (these “leftist” ignoramuses whose obsession with “Zionism” leads them to support literal fascism) but it’s important that somebody makes the points you’re making.
Hell_nah_brother@thelemmy.club 2 weeks ago
You should have been bullied more in school.
TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
My favorite part is pointing out that most israelis are not white westerners, but from other middle eastern countries who were fleeing persecution in those countries and are more arab than western in terms of ethnicity and history.
But that doesn’t fit the nice narrative that all Israelis are white colonlizer/invaders from europe or something. Literally never had it acknowledged once, just denied and told that it is zionist propaganda.
davel@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
No. The majority of Israeli are Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. They are European settler-colonists on occupied land.
BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
“My favorite part is lying”