Comment on Too soon?

surph_ninja@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

• luyapapi@social.friendcraft.club ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  @surph_ninja @jballs How exactly did Charlie Kirk "terrorize" anyone? It was just words, dude! Dramatic much? Charlie Kirk engaged in dialogue. He welcomed conversation, even when he disagreed. He was killed because he called out the lunacy of our culture.

  I feel like I am living in the story of The Emperors New Clothes and the people who actually call out the stupidity are being made fun of...and killed now. You need to get a grip on reality.

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  • surph_ninja@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    He created a literal hitlist of professors, and convinced people that violence against trans people was a moral imperative.

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    • luyapapi@social.friendcraft.club ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      @surph_ninja a hitlist? He may have named people he felt were contributing to the rot of this nation, but you show me proof that he ever called for a hit or for people to do anything more than speak against the issues.

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      • surph_ninja@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Read the testimonials of the experiences of people he put on his Professor Watchlist.

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• dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  materially supporting state violence

  Dingdingdingdingding.

  Here’s the winner, right here. Fascist fucks want to go around pretending that only billy clubs and bullets and bombs count as “violence.” Inflicting mass starvation on people, withholding medical care, stealing workers’ wages they depend upon to survive, and brutalizing minorities and marginalized groups (oftentimes with actual up front physical attacks) is “just doing business.”

  So news flash to the chucklefucks: That’s not how it works. State sponsored violence is still violence, and so it follows the oppressed have a right to defend themselves. It sure sucks when the shoe is on the other foot, don’t it?

  But it turns out there’s an easy way to defend yourself from that sort of thing. All you have to do is not be a hateful fuck whose policies and actions threaten the lives of others, nor their right to exist.

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• khaleer@sopuli.xyz ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It’s bad to kill for political beliefs only if a fascist dies. Otherwise nobody will even know about anything.

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• halfeatenpotato@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Well said. Claiming he simply died for his political beliefs is highly reductive and disingenuous.

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• Gorilladrums@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  See the issue with this mentality is that THIS is the mentality of authoritarians. You try to find ways to justify the murder of the people you politically disagree with while not applying the same standard to the people you politically agree with.

  What you’re doing is helping set a precedent that political violence is justified if you frame it in a certain way. If that’s the case then other extremist whackos, including conservative ones, are going to start doing the same thing. What’s there from stopping some conservative nutjob from shooting someone like Hasan Piker or AOC or Mamdani or anyone on the left really as a retaliation? After all, if what you’re saying here is now passing as a valid justification, then they’ll just use your very own justification to justify their own actions.

  The things that authoritarians don’t understand is that when principles aren’t applied universally, the standard becomes subjective, and sooner or later, their abuse of power will come back to bite them in the ass by the very standard they helped establish. I am fully aware that Lemmy is usually off the deep end on politics, but this is too unhinged even for this platform.

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  • Geldaran@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I agree with you in principle. It sucks a well-worded dissenting opinion is getting downvoted to oblivion. I’m not an advocate for political killings. But I want to pose a counter question… When does it become acceptable to cross this line? When can an otherwise reasonable person give up on a broken system, and go from political resistance to violent resistance? Because for a lot of people, their rights, their lives, and their futures are under attack. Both politically AND with the full force of the government.

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    • Gorilladrums@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I take issue with your question because it conflates two completely separate things as the same. There’s a very difference between a “system” and an “individual”, especially when that person is a private citizen. Ideally, political violence should be a line that’s never crossed, however, we don’t live in an ideal world. If people are tired of the system they live under, and they have no meaningful way of getting change then violence might be inevitable. However, in these cases people go after the system itself. That means the actual institutions that keep the system in place. Want an example? Look at what’s happening right now in Nepal.

      What you don’t do to fight a system is shoot a private citizen over their political views. That’s not meaningful resistance, that’s just violence. It doesn’t do anything or change anything, all it does is help establish a dangerous precedent where violence becomes an acceptable part of political discourse. Don’t like someone’s political views? Shoot them, they probably deserved it anyway… at least that’s what people here are saying to justify it, but what these don’t understand is that it’s a two way street. Just as you cheer and condone political violence, others can as well, including the people you don’t like. You can’t condemn people you don’t like for doing it but then cheer for the same actions when the people you like do it, because you’ll just be a hypocrite and your words will hold no weight. It’s not a defensible position.

      It should be noted that for any principle to mean anything, it is absolutely mandatory for it to be applied fairly and universally. If we want to remain a society that values civil liberties, then those have to extend to everyone, including those who you don’t like don’t or don’t agree with, and this includes people with vile views. When a system becomes a dysfunctional mess, it means that it has deviated significantly from it’s founding principles, and a new system needs to take it’s place to embody them. However, if the people no longer believe in civil liberties for all, then we’re looking at a very grim future because we would have tyranny’s pandora’s box.

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    • WraithGear@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      when they talk about removing rights from the “others” in society.

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      • Geldaran@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        I don’t know your backgrounds or motivations, but that simple a response feels flippant.

        I too believe that you should obviously resist and try to counter someone who wants to stamp down the “other” just because they are the other. But simple talk probably shouldn’t warrant execution, unless you want those same rules to apply against you as well. Fight them with words and actions, yes. Discredit the speaker and their ideas, embarrass them, ostracize them. Drive them and their bass-ackwards views out of polite society. I know this is difficult in the current environment. They appear to have no shame. But I think the bar for for violence has to be higher.

        I wont shed any tears for this guy. I wont use his name. I want him to be forgotten. But I don’t think his killing should be celebrated either.

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  • surph_ninja@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Again, he was far beyond “political disagreement.” He was promoting actual, race-targeted violence domestically and internationally. If you’re going to be a Nazi terrorizing your community, you’re going to be a target for retaliation.

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    • Gorilladrums@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Can cite specific examples of this?

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      • surph_ninja@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Pick any single episode he published.

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  • TomArrr@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    It’s a conundrum. But remember, this guy said It’s fine for some to die from guns. So I sure as hell ain’t wasting a caring thought on him.

    medium.com/…/the-paradox-of-tolerance-or-how-sile…

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    • Gorilladrums@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      It’s not about him, it’s about the implications of embracing actions like this. Vigilantes killing people for political reasons without due process is not justice

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      • TomArrr@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Not caring isn’t really embracing it though, is it?

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• bunchberry@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It comes across to me as they simply lack empathy for other “kinds” of people. If you actually felt the same pain and empathy when watching the video of Kirk get merked, you should feel that a thousand times over when seeing a thousand videos of the IOF massacring children, many sniped in the same way Kirk got merked, and then you should look upon Kirk in disgust for supporting that and dehumanizing the Palestinian people. But the fact is these people don’t. They don’t see other “kinds” of people different from them as in fact “people.” Let’s be real, they don’t feel the same kind of empathy for Palestinian fathers dying as they do a white fascist dying. They constantly mock the deaths of minority groups like trans people. They suddenly have empathy and demand pacifism and valuing the sanctity of all life when a white fascist dies, but are silent in every other cas.e

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• deaf_fish@midwest.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  There was a way around this that would have resulted in no deaths. Trump should been prosecuted for the January 6th insurrection. Then we should have put a bunch of fascists in jail for a long time. Then we should have de-platformed grifters.

  But none of that happens so. We get what we get.

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  • surph_ninja@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    We’re never better off with the Dem fascists in charge either. They’re two sides of the same coin.

    If we want the law to mean anything, and we want it used to hold people accountable, over 90% of sitting congresspeople and senators can now be prosecuted for aiding genocide, which they did in violation of domestic & international laws. That would certainly set a tone and precedent for the future.

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    • Lumisal@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      We were better off with the Dems in charge. The difference is it’s like having your feet on fire vs full emolation. But the point is it’s easier to extinguish feet than it is the whole body, and causes less damage too.

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      • surph_ninja@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        I bet the people being actively killed and oppressed by the Dems would disagree. It sounds more like you personally felt less threatened under Dems, and you want to return to that place of privilege.

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    • deaf_fish@midwest.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Slight nitpick. Though I agree with the whole “we’re never better off with the Dem fascists in charge either.” In the long term. In the short term there are a lot of innocent people in US concentration camps and whom have been deported. Who would strongly disagree with you.

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      • surph_ninja@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Biden deported 250% more people than Trump’s first term, and Stephen Miller was reportedly screaming at a meeting with ICE leadership because he was pissed they were barely keeping pace with Biden’s deportation numbers.

        The Democrat fascists have troves of victims, too, but the media only gives them a microphone when they’re victims of Republicans.

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    • MummysLittleBloodSlut@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well I think Michael Borrego Fernandez was better off before the Nazis took power

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• BanMe@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  If you’re part of a movement that’s taking vaccines away from babies, well, you’re evil and people are going to respond to that.

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• m0darn@lemmy.ca ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  His family shouldn’t expect empathy, and he wouldn’t want his death to distract from full Epstein file disclosure.

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  • Lumisal@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Assuming his kids are young enough, I’d feel bad for them. They probably don’t understand well enough.

    His wife though I don’t care for at all, and will likely use his death for profit and to make her kids extremists. One can only hope they question why their father was hated enough to be killed while most people everyday aren’t.

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  • merc@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Charlie Kirk wouldn’t have wanted you to feel any empathy for him or his family.

    “I can’t stand the word empathy actually. I think empathy is a made-up, New Age term that — it does a lot of damage, but it is very effective when it comes to politics”

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    • Tiger666@lemmy.ca ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Did he actually say this?

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      • merc@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Yep.

        mediaite.com/…/charlie-kirk-calls-empathy-a-new-a…

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  • kreskin@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I expect the NRA will stage a gunshow at a nearby site someplace in the next few days, right? Its what they do for school shootings and this was at a school. So Kirk’s fam can stock up on cheap ammo.

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• Treetrimmer@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Seriously, he’s words and actions have probably resulted in the deaths of others, why shouldn’t he have gotten this outcome?

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  • surph_ninja@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The Republicans’ rubber stamp, and lack of a competent opposition, is proving to be an absolute nightmare for the party. They’re getting away with everything they ever wanted, and people are seeing the immediate consequences play out. When your policies start killing people, people literally fight back. You’ve given people nothing to lose, and this population is armed to the teeth. What did they think was going to happen?

    You can’t declare war on a population, and then expect to walk freely in the open air among that population.

    The Republicans getting everything they ever wanted will be what caused the party’s destruction. The Democrats helping them do it will destroy them, too.

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    • MotoAsh@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      True, but let’s not pretend this is some natural result of fucking around like with climate change. This is a result that will have to be affected through actions of individuals. There will be people doing “bad” things for good reasons. Things that need to be done to create that downfall.

      It will not be pretty and the perpetraitors will not be treated well by the media. It will have the potential to spark a proper civil war, (as if one’s not already here) and it will be ugly. We must be prepared for bad news and prepare our relatives to not fall for the blatant lies that will be reported as fact (as if that hasn’t been happening since time immemorial).

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