Comment on dear republicans, what's the point of alienating every single ally of the US?
surph_ninja@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Honestly asking: what other way would anyone suggest to bring back outsourced manufacturing jobs?
I’ve always heard broad public support on both sides of the aisle for bringing back those jobs. Wasn’t that always going to make things more expensive?
I’m having a hard time following. How is the trade war going to lead to recovering outsourced jobs? Isn’t it more likely to cause businesses to decrease their US operations?
The reason why jobs are outsourced is so companies can take advantage of cheaper labor and operation costs. Other than sending the us economy into a downward spiral that makes people want to work at slave level wages… Not seeing the connection.
Which businesses? Foreign companies or local ones? Do you wish to have your money shipped overseas to purchase a vacuum cleaner? Or would you rather pay a bit more and have you hard earned dollars stay here in at home to help pay wages to your neighbors?
Who do you think transfers more money out of this country. The individual citizens buying vacuum cleaners, or corporations and billionaires who funneled their money to tax havens overseas. The only people harmed by the current economic policy are individuals trying to feed their families. Corporations are making more money than ever before. The wealthiest people in the world are more wealthy than they ever have been in recent history.
But you know what? Let’s just put all the blame and responsibilty on the families. They should have bought their vacuum cleaners from cousin Billy down the street. The shitty economy is all their fault.
Do you hear how silly that sounds?
Does the foreign vacuum work better? Is it more compact? Are the technologies it is built on protected by IP law? If it’s a cheap junk crescent wrench that I’ll use once because I need it only once, I’d rather not pay double for quality.
I agree with your sentiment, but I don’t believe there’s any way to put genie back in the bottle.
I think the more realistic path forward will be made available with advancements in automation and small scale, limited batch manufacturing. But neoliberals will fight those efforts tooth & nail, because neoliberalism requires large scale centralized and specialized manufacturing to maintain broad power by controlling imports & exports. Diverse small batch manufacturing would allow for self-sufficient smaller communities, and threaten the current power structure.
Well the people will still need that things that were imported, eventually you’ll have to have an industry to cover that need.
Picture this just an extreme case. All clothes are made abroad, imagine the tariff makes it “unbuyables”. The people will still have the need for clothes so that creates the space for someone to start making clothes and sell them eventually making a textile industry.
Now the problem is this could take years the internal industry could be shit and a myriad of other problems that will surely will affect the poorest people the most. Economics explained has a good video on it you should check it.
this could take years the internal industry could be shit and a myriad of other problems that will surely will affect the poorest people the most.
Yes, and it will be expensive either way. When you buy a bag of imported tube socks for $5. You’ve got tube socks in a fair trade. When you pay $20, you have 4x less tube socks. The foreign seller can still buy US agriculture, resources, or houses, or bonds to lower our interest rates with the money without forcing you to overpay for tube socks. Globalization has multidirectional benefits.
Multidirectional benefits maybe, but most of the negative effects of shipping interruption are experienced by the receiver. You’re assuming any company has the capacity to make the socks here at all (to meet our needs). Production limits will cause most people to do without, regardless of if they could pay the increased cost.
How does creating a local industry of cheap knockoffs help the US economy exactly? What you’re describing is turning the United States into a random poorer country. That plan only makes sense if the ultimate goal is to diminish the United States economy and its influence in the world. That benefits China and India. It doesn’t benefit the United States domestically.
Here’s a better idea, invest in your people to create an economy and society that doesn’t rely upon raping other country for labor and materials.
Because turning your country into a service economy, with no local manufacturing capacity, is insanely stupid from a national security perspective. We’ve already made this mistake, and it’s part of how China is able to exert so much control over the US.
Just look at what happened the US economy when shipping was only momentarily interrupted.
How do you bring back outsourced jobs without a trade war? The capitalists will always prefer them outsourced, and a trade war is the only thing that’ll cut them off from that labor.
That position has a few inaccurate assumptions. The first being that the machines of capitalism, corporate entities, are tied to geographical regions. Today Apple could just move its base of operations to a country. Willing to have it. That isn’t the US. All the company cares about is profit. It doesn’t care about profit while having its base of operations in the United States. If the political climate is too unpredictable and the profits aren’t easily obtainable, they’re going to move to some place where the profits are more easily obtainable.
Another assumption you’re making is that capitalism is the only solution. It really doesn’t make sense addressing this assumption. If you believe one way, my words on the internet aren’t going to make you believe it another way.
But another assumption implied in your thesis is that bringing back jobs is going to fix the problem. This conclusion fails to consider the fundamental nature of capitalism. Capitalism only prevails when there is constant growth of profit and more importantly for your position, growth of the consumer base. The reason why the United States were such successful Capitalists, was because of our booming population Post world war II. You had this constantly increasing stream of consumers that are necessary for the companies to make profit along with a stable and ever-growing manufacturing base. Those conditions don’t currently exist in the United States.
To that end, the countries at an advantage for the next capitalistic explosion are those with huge populations like India and China. So trying to win the international battle of capitalism is a losing proposition for the United States in the foreseeable future.
To your point, I believe Apple’s based in Ireland on paper for tax avoidance purposes. But your statement leaves out any effects or tariffs, or possibly being blocked out of a market altogether. A company can leave, sure, but a country can just as easily retaliate.
For the record, I’m a socialist. I’m not onboard with any of this madness. Just pointing out that there are significant gaps in the capitalist logic here.
Yeah this line of reasoning doesn’t really gel with actual reality considering Trump is now talking about repealing the chip Act. He’s not actually trying to bring back Manufacturing. Trump has never cared about that. He doesn’t give a shit about Outsourcing manufacturing jobs and his boss Elon Musk certainly doesn’t.
But the chips act supporters paired it with plans for chip manufacturers visas, which would’ve imported cheap indentured labor from Taiwan. It wasn’t actually going to bring jobs here.
And the government not footing the bill for these companies doesn’t prevent them from paying for their own factories. Especially if tariffs give them little choice.
cheap indentured labor from Taiwan
The extremely well-paid and literally best-on-the-planet chip manufacturers? The highly skilled engineers with years of education and expertise, who continuously outpace the achievements of much larger companies and nations? The ones who work in a narrow field that doesn’t actually matter for jobs reports, because they’re such a small group of experts and the real gain in jobs for the economy would be the labor involved in building the fabs for them?
Calling them “cheap indentured labor” is just casual xenophobia.
Sounds like you have no clue about the abuse endured by H1B recipients in this country.
Honestly asking: what other way would anyone suggest to bring back outsourced manufacturing jobs?
Probably with some sort of long term plan instead of randomly turning sweeping tariffs on and off.
Right. The issue is Trump doing it so recklessly.
But a lot of the people arguing against tariffs broadly seem to be telegraphing that they want to keep manufacturing outsourced indefinitely. Which is why I believe a lot of their tariff opposition is falling flat, and they’re not going to succeed in turning Red MAGA against Trump on this.
The thing is, with the way Dems were escalating on multiple war fronts, especially in regards to China, I don’t see how that’s compatible with a slow plan to bring back manufacturing. A short interruption in shipping during Covid brought our economy to its knees. What’s going to happen if neocons get their war for Taiwan?
You do it by incentivizing building factories, up to the point where a company can be competitive with those outsourced industries. Something kind of like the CHIPS act that Trump just axed. Random and blanket tariffs will not help. Tariffs can mainly only help prevent an industry from leaving. For example, we have huge tariffs on Chinese EVs because they would outcompete every US manufactured EV and we would lose those jobs.
The reality is that it’s very difficult to take a centrist position here. Trump’s tariffs make no sense. They will not bring back any jobs because no one is going to build a factory in the next 4 years if there’s a chance the next president reverses Trump’s decision.
It’s also a bad move to tariff our main allies because not only does it make things more expensive for Americans, it erodes trust in our nation and destabilizes our position of dominance globally. In the eyes of the world, we’ve gone from stable and reliable to dangerous and unpredictable. It will take a lot more than 4 years to recover from that.
The big worry people have is a potential incoming economic crash. We’re already dealing with a very weak labor market, uncomfortably high inflation, irrational stock valuations, and high housing prices. If now a huge wave of federal layoffs, which will likely result in instability of federal programs many Americans rely on, hits at the same time as what will essentially be artificially caused inflation through tariffs, it could send things into a downward spiral.
Well said and I agree :)
Maybe something like the chips act … which he just repealed.
The chips act wasn’t going to bring jobs here. They were pairing it with a chip manufacturer’s visa, which would have imported all of the labor. If the companies built the factories at all, and didn’t just plan to pocket the dough, as they tend to do.
Start by taxing the shit out of the CEOs and board of directors, with a mechanism built into the taxation so that any increase in their compensation is entirely offset by an increase in taxes. Then offer incentives to on-shore labor again.
Thank is the way.
Richard Nixon was great at weaponizing taxes against windfall profits to the benefit of the people.
It’s also a policy we are never going to get back in a post-Citizens United US. The people who wield the levers of power will never allow tax rates to get that high again.
All the more reason to stop voting Democrat and pull the lever for the Green candidate instead.
Blue MAGA wanting to start WW3
Lol. Please expand on this.
Dude, I don’t even know where to begin. I guess with their support for a live-streamed genocide that escalated tensions with every country in the Middle East. Full-throated support for a proxy war that threatens to turn nuclear with Russia. Threatening hot war with China throughout the Biden admin. Escalating tensions with the DPRK, and backing a coup attempt in South Korea.
I don’t know how you missed Dems escalating in multiple theaters of war throughout the Biden presidency. Especially his last couple months. After Harris lost the election, the State dept immediately canceled all leave for foreign service officers, and they went absolutely fucking wild from November-January.
At least they’re pretending to take a friendly approach in Africa, as our reputation there continues to deteriorate and they grow closer with China.
I guess with their support for a live-streamed genocide
That’s a pretty glossed over way of telling us you don’t understand global politics and why America isn’t going to alienate their most important ally in the Middle East. A country expressing displeasure with the way their ally is interacting with another nation but remaining their ally because of the geo-political importance is not “blue MAGA (lol)” starting WW3. Nothing about America remaining allies with Israel starts WW3.
Full-throated support for a proxy war that threatens to turn nuclear with Russia.
Lol. You mean America supporting a democratic nation that was invaded by our greatest adversary so they can use their soldiers to prevent us from using ours to stop Russia from expanding their borders and their influence? Not only is that helping not start WW3 because we don’t have to get directly involved with Russia, but no one is going nuclear because it doesn’t benefit anyone.
Threatening hot war with China throughout the Biden admin.
Source your statements. No one is just going to believe you, especially after saying things like “blue MAGA”.
Escalating tensions with the DPRK
Source your statements.
backing a coup attempt in South Korea.
Source your statements.
Continued support for destabilization of leftist countries in South & Central America.
Source your statements.
Honestly, I’m not going to keep saying it. You keep making wild statements you expect us to take your word for. Source every statement you said or I can’t take you seriously. You just typed a lot of words to condemn Democrats for their handling of foreign affairs while 100% utterly and completely declining to acknowledge Republican’s categorical destruction of our relationships with virtually all our allies over the course of a single month.
It’s pretty obvious you’re a shill.
And stop saying “blue MAGA”. It makes you look ridiculous.
You seem confident that you have a superior grasp of international politics, which is wild considering you’re openly stating you aren’t even aware of major recent world events.
Honestly asking: what other way would anyone suggest to bring back outsourced manufacturing jobs?
The bigger question is “do Americans actually want these jobs?” According to the JOLTS surveys for the last several quarters there’s about 100,000 open manufacturing jobs that are not getting filled, in a labor market sized about 500,000. Simply put, it’s abundantly clear that people don’t want the manufacturong jobs that do exist
I also saw this from the inside when I worked my last job with a company that does contract cleaning services for industrial facilities. Nobody wants to work industrial sanitation, and they end up primarily hiring immigrants and ex-convicts as they’re the only people desperate enough to take these industrial sanitation jobs. And it’s not for lack of pay or benefits, the fact is the nature of the work sucks!
No, a lot of those positions are left unfilled on purpose. Lots of ghost jobs. Lots of jobs left vacant in the hopes they can fill it with an H1B.
Your last point is also completely wrong. It’s not that people aren’t willing to do the jobs. They just want to be properly compensated. Hell, I’d take those jobs for the right pay level.
Canada isnt a significant threat to US manufacturing, so why the tariffs on Canada?
China would make sense, but Canada? Why?
I haven’t seen any explanation that’s convincing. I think partly it’s a personal vendetta with Trump not appreciating the criticism from Canada of his administration. I think it’s also partly that Trump is fairly isolationist in foreign policy, and there’s a lot influence from the military industrial complex in the upper levels of Canada.
My gut feeling is that this is all connected to capitalists flailing and taking any wild swing they believe will bring back the past glory days, and re-establish a unipolar world with the US at the top. Democrats believe they can do it with another world war, and Republicans believe they can do it with a trade war.
The reality is most of them haven’t really thought things through, and the ones who have are just hoping to delay & kick the can into a future profit quarter to deal with later. Neoliberalism is dead/dying. No matter how much they want it, we can’t go backwards. We’re at a fork in the road, and the options are neo-feudal fascism or socialism.
Bring back jobs via tax incentives for being local and cutting tax breaks and bailouts for taking industry outside the US.
Really I’d support blocking market access at all for companies that outsource what could be done locally. But again, that will make things more expensive. I don’t know if there’s any way to get around that.
Yes, just the act of not producing products in countries with slave wages will make things more expensive.
I just don’t see any future in the US where the powers that be allow the status quo to be changed in that way.
He’s out of line, but he’s right.
Honestly asking: what other way would anyone suggest to bring back outsourced manufacturing jobs?
Currency rate between US/China to drop 3x or more. That is also solution to US debt. Doubling down on dead ender energy will create high cost of living, not just from climate related insurance rates, but for expensive manufacturing energy, and need to pay high wages just to have home affordability.
Destroying NA auto industry will destroy it instead of auto companies writing off investments in Canada/Mexico to reinvest in US declining market that is smaller and uncompetitive. Massive auto subsidies would be needed, but still no export markets. Auto sector trade with Canada has a US surplus, with Canadians have specialized skill in parts making.
Manufacturing only makes sense if there is export potential for good products. Boeing and Caterpillar and US weapons getting blacklisted by world is bad. UAW cheering on Trump NA tariffs won’t be forgotten. Blacklisting US agriculture means their share of massive subsidies.
The future (present in China) of manufacturing is robotics. There are plenty of jobs in constructing factories, but those are cheaper in other countries, and the best robot/manufacturing companies are in China. Trump has hinted at welcoming Chinese FDI in US manufacturing, but that would be factory construction jobs more than significant permanent manual labour jobs. UAW won’t love that move.
There is a balance to it. Yes, local manufacturing will make things more expensive. But making more durable goods tends to pay better wages for more people. And let’s be honest here, most people can’t be a doctor or write code. High paying collage degrees are beyond them. Or we can maintain low paying retail jobs for the majority of people.
But the is a balance and it can’t be done over night without causing large amounts of economic pain to many people.
But doesn’t escalating tensions with China require it to be done relatively overnight? Seems like anyone wanting this done more carefully needs to also accept that will require giving up the fight over Taiwan.
Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
I don’t think there is any way to bring back those jobs. You guys are dreaming if you think you can just go back to an economy of the past.
The world has globalized, America can’t just pretend it hasn’t. Sure you can try and bring everything in house but by alienating allies there are lots of things you just can’t get yourselves like many raw materials, and then you need to worry about exporting to actually bring money into your economy not just move it around in circles.
Adulated_Aspersion@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Plus, think about the logistics of that.
Goods produced in the US are categorically more expensive due to infrastructure, cost of living (and therefore wage expectations). If we could wave a magic wand to transplant an effective manufacturing facility from Pakistan and place it in rural Mississippi, hire Americans to do the work, and begin pumping out goods, the price to produce the goods would increase substantially.
Americans wouldn’t be able to afford American made goods, which is true even now. Many Americans try to buy American “when possible”, but cost quickly outweighs patriotism.
surph_ninja@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Your last paragraph is completely off course and backwards. Americans can’t afford American made goods previously because of the outsourcing.
We’re proposing the Henry Ford model of paying your workers enough to be able to afford your products.
surph_ninja@lemmy.world 2 days ago
I agree with your position, but I’m struggling to reconcile that with the western push for war with global superpowers.
The pandemic temporarily crippled our economy with an interruption in shipping from China. How the hell are we planning to survive a hot war with China over Taiwan? They could defeat us without firing a single shot, by just refusing to ship here.
Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
China also doesn’t want to interrupt trade, it benefits them just as much as America, that’s how. They won’t invade Taiwan if there’s a threat of war disrupting trade.
If you isolate the country from China too much then there is no benefit to China not invading. Globalization encourages peace because trade benefits all. Russia is suffering from all their sanctions now, they made a mistake thinking things would be over in a few days and people would get over it. Now they need to grit their teeth and pull through it. No one else wants to be Russia.
surph_ninja@lemmy.world 2 days ago
But China is much better positioned to outlast us during any interruption in trade for the same reason Russia has survived sanctions. They have the local production capacity and access to vast mineral & resource wealth that we can’t match.
Trumble@sopuli.xyz 2 days ago
Why wouldn’t China do exactly the same mistake in some point?
As European I would advice against the trust that the strong economic ties would keep totalitarians in check.
Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
Plus there’s no one saying you can’t reduce reliance on specific countries like China. It is indeed dangerous to rely on any one country for too much. But if you spread it out to many countries and make sure to have some domestic supply for the most important things it would be fine.
At the moment Trump is targeting all countries, and many for no reason at all.
Adderbox76@lemmy.ca 2 days ago
Cries in Canadian