Submitted 11 months ago by Rapidcreek@lemmy.world to technology@lemmy.world
I wonder what sort of problems having near-unlimited energy at our disposal would bring. Like, light and noise pollution are already bad enough. But would people be even more careless with that? And if we manage to automate most things and energy isn’t an issue, how would we live and occupy ourselves with? How would that change industries? How would that change things like war and power struggles in general?
I find this future a bit concerning but also fascinating
We live in a post-scarcity world - yet people are still starving ans stilll dying from easy curable diseases.
I won’t be holding my breath.
Yup. The rich will use it to consolidate power and wealth, while the poor still have to go to work and grind for 50+ hours a week just to scrape by. Nothing will change, because the issue isn’t a lack of resources; The issue is resource distribution.
Thinking of the hypothetical scenario where in a short timeframe energy would become near unlimited and almost free:
On the positive side: with no energy limitations, Direct Air Capture technology could be scaled massively. That’s one really promising technology that can take carbon off the air and use it for other things (like sustainable air fuels) or removing it altogether.
Also this would accelerate the transition to electric cars and well, electric everything: why pay for fuel for your car, your stove or boiler, when they can be almost free? That has a potential for good effects on the environment too.
On the negative side: this opens the door for more, cheap transport. If people don’t have to pay for fuel, they’d be more willing to take the car everywhere. This would mean more roads, more infrastructure, more destruction of ecosystems, less space for pedestrians… A trend that is already too difficult to reverse in a world of expensive fuels.
In terms of economics, I could see this accelerating the gap between countries. Those who could benefit from semi-free energy first would have an immense competitive advantage and also lower their manufacturing costs, leaving worse-off countries in a position where they can’t compete because of technology nor because of cheap labour.
Honestly, we won’t likely see cheap energy in our lifetimes. A fusion powerplant could come online that is able to power the entire eastern seaboard of the US with some leftover for millionths of a cent per kW and we would still be getting charged just as much if not more for it. The general populace will never see the benefits of nearly infinite, nearly free power because the company that owns it will just see it as a higher profit margin. Sure, they may underbid fossil fuels or other renewables by just enough that they can’t operate, but it will still be orders of magnitude more than we should be charged. The only way the population sees the benefit is if the reactor is publicly owned and the government is prevented from converting it over to privatization because that has ever gone well for us.
I can tell you, unequivocally, without a doubt, light and noise pollution are much better than energy shortages.
Yeah, I meant more along the lines of what those unknown problems could look like. For example, whales get very disturbed by sound pollution in the water and I can just imagine that a lot of other animals do as well. Not to mention that we ourselves apparently risk mental health from all the noise in the city. How would that change if we have more electronics at our disposal? Or maybe it’ll be the opposite and we can build more quiet EVs.
Unlimited for our current needs or on a planetary scale, but nowhere near enough at the scale of a solar system of galaxy. I doubt it would be enough energy to for example open a wormhole or accelerate a spaceship to even 1/3 of light-speed. Not only is the amount important, but also the ability to sustain the output.
We’ll just be on the first rung of the Kardashev scale. Of 3. However, the jumps between the rungs are huge (logarithmic). Complete control of planet, star, galaxy.
What’s the alphanumeric sequence at the end of your comment?
I’m just over here waiting to hear that the USAF has had fusion in the form of bombs for a decade but let us all keep struggling.
Yeah, why didn't they provide hydrogen bombs for everyone?
While this is amazing and all, it’s always seemed to me that this approach of using hundreds of laser beams focused on a single point would never scale to be viable for power generation. Can any experts here confirm?
I’ve always assumed this approach was just useful as a research platform – to learn things applicable to other approaches, such as tokamaks, or to weapons applications.
I mean I assume you have to start somewhere to be able to improve, right? Like breakthroughs with TVs, no one would realistically use a vacuum tube when you can make an OLED display. But if we didn’t start with the vacuum tube we wouldn’t know what to improve on.
Once we know that we can do it, we can start working on how to do it easier.
IMO the current best bet on who builds an actual fusion plant first is Proxima Fusion, a spin-out of the Max Planck institute. They’re planning on building a large Stellerator by 2030 based on their experiences with Wendelstein-7X, which exceeded all expectations (as in: It behaved exactly as predicted), proving that the concept scales without issue. Still some kinks to figure out but those are about economical efficiency, not achieving power output.
The NIF generally does research on nukes. I have a hard time believing them talking about civil applications is anything but marketing.
Yes, and the reason why they are good is that they are using high-temperature superconductors for their magnets, which makes it as efficient as currently possible. The tokamak models of the US are doing the opposite, they use even more energy for their magnetic field.
Yeah, you don’t get to the point of solving scaling problems without having something to scale first.
Yeah pretty much my understanding as well, I don’t think anyone has a notion of what it would take to generate power from inertial fusion and whatever if it would be practical.
Same, I never understood the scope of this lasers-on-a-pill approach, other than being a starter. I like the Polywell concept more.
“ Scientists in California shooting nearly 200 lasers at a cylinder holding a fuel capsule the size of a peppercorn have taken another step in the quest for fusion energy, which, if mastered, could provide the world with a near-limitless source of clean power. Last year on a December morning, scientists at the National Ignition Facility at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California (LLNL) managed, in a world first, to produce a nuclear fusion reaction that released more energy than it used, in a process called “ignition.” Now they say they have successfully replicated ignition at least three times this year, according to a December report from the LLNL. This marks another significant step in what could one day be an important solution to the global climate crisis, driven primarily by the burning of fossil fuels. For decades, scientists have attempted to harness fusion energy, essentially recreating the power of the sun on Earth.
After making their historic net energy gain last year, the next important step was to prove the process could be replicated.
Brian Appelbe, a research fellow from the Centre for Inertial Fusion Studies at Imperial College London, said the ability to replicate demonstrates the “robustness” of the process, showing it can be achieved even when conditions such as the laser or fuel pellet are varied.
Each experiment also offers an opportunity to study the physics of ignition in detail, Appelbe told CNN. “This provides valuable information to the scientists in addressing the next challenge to be overcome: how to maximize the energy that can be obtained.”
Unlike nuclear fission — the process used in the world’s nuclear plants today, which is generated by the division of atoms — nuclear fusion leaves no legacy of long-lived radioactive waste. As the climate crisis accelerates, and the urgency of ditching planet-heating fossil fuels increases, the prospect of an abundant source of safe, clean energy is tantalizing. Nuclear fusion, the reaction that powers the sun and other stars, involves smashing two or more atoms together to form a denser one, in a process that releases huge amounts of energy.
There are different ways of creating energy from fusion, but at NIF, scientists fire an array of nearly 200 lasers at a pellet of hydrogen fuel inside a diamond capsule the size of a peppercorn, itself inside a gold cylinder. The lasers heat up the cylinder’s outside, creating a series of very fast explosions, generating large amounts of energy collected as heat.
The energy produced in December 2022 was small — it took around 2 megajoules to power the reaction, which released a total of 3.15 megajoules, enough to boil around 10 kettles of water. But it was sufficient to make it a successful ignition and to prove that laser fusion could create energy.
Since then, the scientists have done it several more times. On July 30, the NIF laser delivered a little over 2 megajoules to the target, which resulted in 3.88 megajoules of energy — their highest yield achieved to date, according to the report. Two subsequent experiments in October also delivered net gains. “These results demonstrated NIF’s ability to consistently produce fusion energy at multi-megajoule levels,” the report said.
There is still a very long way to go, however, until nuclear fusion reaches the scale needed to power electric grids and heating systems. The focus now is on building on the progress made and figuring out how to dramatically scale up fusion projects and significantly bring down costs.
At the COP28 climate summit in Dubai, US climate envoy John Kerry launched an international engagement plan involving more than 30 countries with the aim of boosting nuclear fusion to help tackle the climate crisis.
“There is potential in fusion to revolutionize our world, and to change all of the options that are in front of us, and provide the world with abundant and clean energy without the harmful emissions of traditional energy sources,” Kerry told the climate gathering. In December, the US Department of Energy announced a $42 million investment in a program bringing together multiple institutions, including LLNL, to establish “hubs” focused on advancing fusion. “Harnessing fusion energy is one of the greatest scientific and technological challenges of the 21st Century,” said US Secretary of Energy Jennifer Granholm in a statement. “We now have the confidence that it’s not only possible, but probable, that fusion energy can be a reality.”
Ella Nilsen and René Marsh contributed to reporting
It’s good to see some progress in this area. It’s something people have been working on for a very long time. I just wish they wouldn’t keep pitching it as a ‘solution to climate crisis’. It isn’t.
Fusion power is not currently viable. Progress is being made, but a lot more research is required before actual usable power plants can be designed; and then a lot more time will be required to actually build them. And even then, we’re only guessing about how good these power plants might be. They could be really great and clean, but currently they don’t exist at all. People have been working this this technology for a very long time, and it is yet to succeed. So the claims about problems it will solve are just hopeful speculation.
Climate change was once a distant future problem for which fusion power sounds like a good answer, but that was a long time ago now. Today, climate change is a right now problem and fusion power is still a distant future technology. We must not gamble the planet we all live on for a bet that fusion power is just around the corner and will somehow fix all our power needs. That would be a really bad bet to make. Delaying actual meaningful action in the hopes that future fusion will save the world… would be a mistake. So lets not think of fusion as a solution to climate change.
Fortunately we already have a fusion reactor available to us, we just have to get better at harnessing the energy it produces.
Indeed. And we are getting better at that. A lot better. Improvement in solar power have been happening a lot faster than fusion power. It’s far better than it use to be, and has the advantage that it is already very good today.
Today, climate change is a right now problem
Only for a significant majority of humanity. And species in general. You just gotta hustle and get that bunker built and you’ll be all good. Climate change is a hoax anyway, I saw a picture once of the ocean in the 50s, and a recent picture with no reference to tides, and the water levels were the roughly the same from about 500 metres away.
It is also about the philosophy of many people who are focused on fusion as the future. If we just had unlimited cheap power that would solve alllll of our problems…. which is a fundamental misunderstanding of what is really the crisis here.
I think the problem is that climate change isn’t a problem yet. Most people are merely inconvenienced by it. When it gets to be a real problem, it will be too late. That is why it is hard to rally people around the cause with more than words.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Scientists in California shooting nearly 200 lasers at a cylinder holding a fuel capsule the size of a peppercorn have taken another step in the quest for fusion energy, which, if mastered, could provide the world with a near-limitless source of clean power.
This marks another significant step in what could one day be an important solution to the global climate crisis, driven primarily by the burning of fossil fuels.
Brian Appelbe, a research fellow from the Centre for Inertial Fusion Studies at Imperial College London, said the ability to replicate demonstrates the “robustness” of the process, showing it can be achieved even when conditions such as the laser or fuel pellet are varied.
As the climate crisis accelerates, and the urgency of ditching planet-heating fossil fuels increases, the prospect of an abundant source of safe, clean energy is tantalizing.
Nuclear fusion, the reaction that powers the sun and other stars, involves smashing two or more atoms together to form a denser one, in a process that releases huge amounts of energy.
In December, the US Department of Energy announced a $42 million investment in a program bringing together multiple institutions, including LLNL, to establish “hubs” focused on advancing fusion.
The original article contains 740 words, the summary contains 200 words. Saved 73%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
I thought the Z machine at Sandia produced more than it consumed? That was like 20 years ago
Nah, the Z machine never achieved ignition. That doesn’t mean it’s not a really cool facility though!
luthis@lemmy.nz 11 months ago
“Near limitless energy”. …
OK what are the limits? Preferably absurd answers please…
Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works 11 months ago
They boiled 10 kettles of water with this energy.
Ultimately, if everything is optimized, its probably only limited by the number of kettles available.
0110010001100010@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Could we somehow capture the steam from all the kettles to turn a turbine? I see zero problems with this plan.
uphillbothways@kbin.social 11 months ago
Limitless only for the same visit. 1 customer per reaction.
No repeat visits or sharing allowed!
krellor@kbin.social 11 months ago
Since everyone else gave a joke answer I'll take a stab in the dark and say the upper limits would be the availability of hydrogen and physical limitations in transforming heat output into electricity. The hydrogen is the most common element but 96% of it is currently produced from fossil fuels. After that, it would be how well you can scale up turbines to efficiently convert heat to electricity.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world 11 months ago
I’m not expert either, but I don’t think most of that 96% of hydrogen is a candidate for the fusion we’re doing today. NIF (like the OP article) uses Deuterium (Hydrogen with 1 neutron) and Tritium (Hydrogen with 2 neutrons) is what is squashed together to produce energy. The more neutrons make the fusion “easier” to produce energy.
Naturally occurring Deuterium isn’t crazy hard to find. Its in sea water, but you have to go through A LOT of sea water to pull out the rare atoms of Deuterium. Naturally occurring Tritium is much more rare with having to find very small amounts in ground water.
Zeth0s@lemmy.world 11 months ago
If you have fusion energy, creating H2 from water via electrolysis is a joke. You can do it at home. It only requires a lot of energy. But with energy from fusion it will become super easy, barely an inconvenient
MonkderZweite@feddit.ch 11 months ago
Electrolysis has up to 70% efficiency and needs sulfuric acid. The superheated thing has about 90% efficiency.
atocci@kbin.social 11 months ago
2 energies and no more
LordKitsuna@lemmy.world 11 months ago
Image
willis936@lemmy.world 10 months ago
There is 1.4E21 kg of water on Earth. 0.03% of hydrogen is deuterium, a suitable fusion fuel. H2O has an atomic mass of 18 and O has an atomic mass of 16, so Earth has 4.7E16 kg of deuterium readily centrifuged out of ocean water.
D-D fusion converts about 2% of mass to energy. E=mc^2. So we have 8.4E31 Joules of fusion fuel ready for us on Earth. We used 2400 TWh of energy last year. If we used this amount indefinitely then we would have 9.8 trillion years of fuel.
Bonus: deuterium depletion would have virtually no environmental effect.
luthis@lemmy.nz 10 months ago
This is the answer we all needed.
Big_Boss_77@kbin.social 11 months ago
The flamingo population must remain constant for ignition to function.
Zarxrax@lemmy.world 11 months ago
It’s nearly limitless because they used nearly 200 lasers. If they built a new one with the full 200 lasers, who knows what could happen.
luthis@lemmy.nz 11 months ago
Like, they used 198 lasers, or they used 98% of each of the 200 lasers?
dQw4w9WgXcQ@lemm.ee 10 months ago
You know how the sun radiates an incredible amount of power through millions and millions of tonnes of material undergoing nuclear fusion every minute, and the sun is expected to last for millions of years?
Well, not that much. But it’s still a lot!
RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 11 months ago
You would have enough power to play a game of Civ II to completion.
MonkderZweite@feddit.ch 11 months ago
One limit less.
rem26_art@kbin.social 11 months ago
Only on Tuesdays between the times of 04:04 and 04:27 UTC
Sabata11792@kbin.social 11 months ago
Ah, my childhood ISP is still luring around.
MxM111@kbin.social 11 months ago
UTC? Absurd!
blind3rdeye@lemm.ee 10 months ago
It’s near limitless in the sense that the fuel for it will not run out. … But to be honest, the ‘unlimited energy’ thing is mostly marketing hype. If we were worried about fuel running out, then solar would be the obvious go-to. That’s even less likely to run out than fusion power, and it has the advantage that we can already build it. And fusion, like solar and everything else, still requires land and resources to build the power plants. There are hopes that fusion power plants might be be more space efficient or something, but that obviously isn’t the case currently. Currently the situation is that people have been working on this for generations and the big breakthrough is that we can now momentarily break-even with power on a small scale with state of the art equipment. So I think it’s a bit too soon to claim it will have any advantages over solar. Right now it is not viable at all, and any future advantages are just speculation.
That said, fusion power is technology worth pursuing. It’s not complete garbage green-washing (unlike “carbon capture and storage”, which really is complete garbage), but the idea that fusion it’s some holy-grail of unlimited power is … well … basically just good marketing to keep the research funds flowing.
SlopppyEngineer@discuss.tchncs.de 11 months ago
The limits are only your imagination.
meco03211@lemmy.world 11 months ago
You have to sign up for a two year initial contract. After that there’s tons of limits.