sj_zero
You do have to remember that the climate has changed a lot since civilization was born. The epic of Gilgamesh talks about the great cedar forests of Syria. Northern Europe was a giant chunk of ice. And once a place has ontological inertia, there's only been a few times in history where that changes, such as the bronze age collapse.
its a jarring realization that deserts, mountains, and worse climates are mroe hospitable to human civilization than Lush/Green looking northern forests
Submitted 2 days ago by 
Grumpus_Maximus@thelemmy.club to historymemes@piefed.social
https://thelemmy.club/pictrs/image/d2a65532-d993-422d-905f-8acd900909a0.png
Comments
maltasoron@sopuli.xyz 2 days ago
As mentioned by others, the Sahara used to be a lot greener during the African humid period, between 14,600 and 5,000 years ago.
The AHP led to the widespread settlement of the Sahara and the Arabian Desert and had a profound effect on African cultures, including the birth of the Ancient Egyptian civilization.
strocker89@feddit.online 2 days ago
One word: Winter.
CyberEgg@discuss.tchncs.de 2 days ago
First, the Levante, Egypt and Mesopotamia are not the cradle of humanity but the cradle of civilisation. The Cradle of Humankind is a but further south in South Africa with significant findings for three early genera of homo.
Second, if one talked about the Cradle of Humankind that wouldn’t be history but prehistory.
Third, Siberia and most parts of Canada nowadays are frozen, uninhabitable wastelands during winter.
Fourth, if we talked the cradle of civilisation (what this meme is most likely about) we would also need to talk about the different climatic conditions 5000-6000 years ago and also where exactly these civilisations developed: on relatively narrow strips of fertile land around the rivers of Euphrates, Tigris and Nile.
Danquebec@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
Good points but we should also be careful to distinguish the cradles of agriculture and the cradles of civilization. They’re two very different things and are a long time apart.
Every region’s history is different yet somewhat similar, but here I’ll focus on the region referred to in the meme.
About twelve thousand years ago, in the Levant and then in the Zagros mountains, people have broadened their diet and became settled. This allowed them to domesticate domesticable plants and animals. Agriculture was born.
About five thousand years ago, people brought domesticates to river valleys and exploited their banks, which wasn’t necessarily an easy feat.
At least in Mesopotamia, it required irrigation.
In Egypt, I’m less clear on this time period but it seems to be tied to domesticates arriving in the region and desertification.
In both cases however, high productivity allowed high population, and the fact that people couldn’t really flee attempts at taxing production, imposing corvée, and other forms of forced requirements allowed primary states to emerge.
TiredDinoByte@lemmy.today 2 days ago
Other people have mentioned the illusion of the photography, but there is also a slightly disturbing reason why there is desertification I’m many of the cradles of humanity.
Many ancient civilizations becames victims and toppled due to localized climate change due to human expansion (soil erosion, deforestation, overexploitation of hunting stocks).
But I’m sure global climate disaster will be different… Right?
Racoonwithbenefits@lemmy.zip 2 days ago
I would guess people preferred a place with fresh water and grass, so they could get water, their cattle could graze and farming, of course
Nautalax@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Until surprisingly recently at least for Canada those locations were actually even more hostile with ice sheets up to thousands of feet high smothering them. Part of the reason why that area has a crazy low diversity of plants and animals (aside from migratory birds going there to take advantage of low predators in the breeding season) is that basically anything remaining there was killed and it was recolonized with whatever plants and critters from the margins happened to be suitable enough to spread in afterwards. With the ice age other areas were once colder and wetter as well.
With respect to at least Egypt bear in mind that the areas frequently photographed are the dramatic desert parts looming over the sides of the river but they have very extensive lush lands along the Nile which is where nearly everyone actually lives.
CyberEgg@discuss.tchncs.de 2 days ago
With respect to at least Egypt bear in mind that the areas frequently photographed are the dramatic desert parts
Definitely not only Egypt. The Fertile Crescent from the Levante along the north end of the Syrian Desert all the way through Mesopotamia to the shores of the Persian Gulf was generally very, well, fertile land (as the name suggests).
Unfortunately, Euphrates and Tigris nowadays contain much less water due to climate change and dams built in Turkey, and farming cannot be done reliable in the lower regions anymore.
trxxruraxvr@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Just wait a couple of months, then the top ones will be -30°C and covered in a meter of snow
tomselleck@sopuli.xyz 2 days ago
Ancient peoples had more ways to mitigate the heat than the cold. The Levant and Northern Africa also used to be greener.
marcos@lemmy.world 2 days ago
You can cross a desert, you only need to carry water and food.
Just try walking 100m into a forest.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 1 day ago
That’s not it. Europe was largely forest 2000 years ago, with the Gauls being forest people. There are still hunter gatherers living in the Amazon
Lumidaub@feddit.org 2 days ago Cradle of civilisation, maybe, not humanity. The need (and ability) to problem solve got us to where we are. If everything is tickety-boo, why try to change anything?
Remember_the_tooth@lemmy.world 2 days ago
I upvoted for “tickety-boo” alone. Great word choice.
- Lumidaub@feddit.org 2 days ago
👼🏼
Sanctus@anarchist.nexus 2 days ago The Levant was not always a desert region.
Elting@piefed.social 2 days ago
The Sahara used to be far greener in the not too distant past I thought? Also the taiga will be very far less green very soon.
Danquebec@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
The area around a major river being greener helps in no way the emergence of a river civilization.
What matters is that the river banks are fertile, the area has a good climate (especially a long growing season), domesticates were brought, and the area around is worse for sustenance.
Much to the contrary, the area around being better for sustenance probably makes it more difficult and unlikely for a civilization to emerge, as it allows people to freely escape taxation / corvée by just migrating away from such attempts.
Elting@piefed.social 1 day ago
That area has supported hominids since way before civilization. Its crazy how many “cousins” we used to have. It seems like biodiversity used to be way higher there.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Not pictured: the temperature of the first two, and the massively fertile floodplains of the bottom 4
Also the cradle of humanity is more like Kenya. That’s the cradle of civilization
Also the soil in the Canadian shield is too thin for effective farming