My open letter to the tech industry on sexism, HR, and Linus Tech Tips

Submitted ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨sweeny@sh.itjust.works⁩ to ⁨technology@lemmy.world⁩

The Linus Tech Tips abuse allegations are yet another reminder that something absolutely needs to be done about the rampant sexism in the tech industry. If you haven’t heard them yet you can read about them here, but be warned, there is some potentially very triggering abuse and self harm detailed: threadreaderapp.com/…/1691693740254228741.html

Madison’s story is not unique - we have heard stories like hers time and time again. As a tech professional it makes me sick to share an industry with these horrible people, and to know that little is being done to reign them in.

So, what can be done about this? I don’t have all of the answers, but one thing that comes to mind is that HR departments desperately need actual unbiased oversight, perhaps even from a governing body outside of the company. It has become common knowledge that HR’s primary purpose is to protect the company, and this prevents employees from speaking out and driving internal change even in terrible situations like Madison Reeve and countless others have faced. The way things are run clearly needs to fundamentally change

Let me know in the comments if you have any ideas on how we as a tech community might be able to address these issues, I am truly at a loss. All I want is for tech to be a safe space for everybody to find their passion and success, and it saddens me that we clearly aren’t there yet.

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kadu@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
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- sweeny@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  That’s a great point, unions are really under utilized in tech and would help a ton with this. I’m not sure if forming a union is 100% of the solution though, there are powerful unions in hollywood and sexism has still been allowed to run rampant there for example
  
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- Clevermistakes@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  As someone with way too many years in the tech industry having suffered these toxic brogrammer cultures I can confidently say the reason unions won’t take off is people assume if “I am in a union then as an engineer I’ll only make as much as the project manager, and I want my 300k TC!” Which is completely incorrect but good luck convincing these younger engineers that, I’ve been trying for years.
  
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pizza-bagel@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Woman in tech, some stories to share

Back at my first job I was interested in switching teams. I interviewed with one of the existing employees and everything went well. I then had an "interview" with the manager who spent the entire time telling me why I wouldn't want the job, all things that I was well aware of when I applied go transfer, and all surrounding me being a weak little emotional woman. I reported him to my manager, but nothing ended up happening. He was one of the original employees when the company first started so he was untouchable.

Same thing with clients at my first job. I was a consultant and got sexually harassed by clients A LOT. Staring, comments, overstepping boundaries in various degrees. Not once would the company remove me from an assignment for fear of upsetting the customer. I was expected to just get over it and "remain professional" which means I wasn't allowed to say anything to them.

Fast forward to today and several jobs later (skipping some less egregious sexism and sexual harassment) I currently work for a company that is consistently voted one of the best places for women to work. Now sexual harassment wise, it's great, no problems with that thankfully. But I have dealt with sexism such as men telling me my ideas suck and then immediately turning around and presenting them as their own. This was corroborated by the other woman on our team. I documented this pattern of behavior and reported it and surprise! nothing happened. The people doing those things were supposed to have some bullshit "how not to be sexist" classes and that didn't even happen.

I was recently promoted and I found out I am paid 20% less than male employees in my same role at the company. And it's not for lack of negotiating or trying, it was on ongoing battle for multiple months. I left my previous job when I found out a guy on my team at the same level was making like 20k more than me. History repeats itself. And men are just blessed with raises and promotions they didn't even ask for while I am out here documenting and presenting all the reasons I deserve it for scraps.

And it's not just as simple as "quit and go somewhere else". It's a surprise at every job you take, it could be better or worse. But there has always been varying levels of sexism at every job I've have had. Even if I'm on a great team where everyone respects me, there could be someone on another team I have to work with that completely disregards me. It's a risk every time you switch jobs.

Rant over. Ways you can help

If you work remotely or over video calls a lot a HUGE benefit is using the hand raising feature. Women get talked over A LOT and if you respect the hand raises everyone gets an uninterrupted turn to speak

If you notice someone being interrupted, step in and say "X was going to make a point, and I would like to hear what they have to say" or similar

Call out sexism if you see it. There are ways to do this that are not aggressive/rude sounding. If someone brings up an idea as their own, you can say something like "Oh yeah I remember X brought up Y in the previous meeting and I thought it was a good idea" or "X created documentation for Y proposal that I think is really useful in this decision"

Sometimes, I just want someone to step in so I can move on with my life. Let's say we are troubleshooting something and I say X is the solution but it is shot down or ignored by the person I have to work with. Be that dude I can ask to tell them X is the solution so they finally implement it and finally be done. Yes this happens a lot, and this tactic works every time.

It gets very tiring and beats you down to have to fight the same fight all the time, when all you just want to do is do your job. So it really helps to have a culture on the team where people are also speaking up when they see something.
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- FlyingSquid@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I’m not exactly in tech, tech-adjacent, but I’m a minority as a man in the office where I work and it is so refreshing. No bullshit macho culture I never felt a part of in the first place and everyone just does their job without trying to out-do each other. Really robust sexual harassment policies too.
  
  I so don’t miss endless bro talk about football and grilling and stupid shit like that.
  
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- sudneo@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I agree with what you said for the most part, except the fact that I wouldn’t define sexism in the majority of cases having people “stealing” your ideas, nor shooting down ideas.
  
  In the first case it seems a common practice in competitive environments, where workers have no incentive at all to cooperate and all the incentive to screw each other to look better and chase promotions. I think people who do that regularly do that with everyone. Appropriating ideas and work of others is how middle managers in many cases got there and how they climb the ladder, even though everyone knows what they are worth.
  
  The second is an extremely common occurrence in tech, ideas are shot down all the time. I have seen it occurring countless of times, I don’t think is a sexist practice inherently, although still something extremely annoying within tech. It is sexism when ideas are shot down “because a woman is saying it”, though.
  
  My final remark is about the part about “males getting raises without even asking” (paraphrasing). Now, this may have been true in your context, I have no way to dispute it. However, I just want to reinforce that the narrative of “males being somewhat on the same side” disregarding the conflict within workers and owners (I.e. those who get the raises and those who give them) seems to be completely fabricated (based on my experience) and also extremely damaging to workers solidarity. The narrative that somehow gender prevails over class as a factor of unification is very dangerous and plays right in the hand of those who benefit from gender conflict as an obstacle for class unity.
  
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  - Clevermistakes@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I think some of the points you have to look at demographically and use privilege to correct it. I’m not a woman, but I’ve seen women I work with have their ideas “shot down” simply because it was from them even if it was paraphrased a minute later by a man then magically it’s perfect!
    
    I often make a point of correcting that in my org by saying “This was a good idea the first time from (woman), why did we move on from it last time?” So then people who shot this down have to awkwardly explain why they “didn’t understand” or make up some excuse. It works to highlight that maybe you just weren’t listening. Because it was a woman speaking. It’s unfortunate but it’s common in FAANG. I’m just tired of seeing it as someone who’s worked with some really incredible women who left the industry because of the toxicity.
    
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  - pizza-bagel@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Sexism isn't sexism because it only happens to women. Sexism is sexism because it overwhelmingly impacts women. Implicit bias is a thing, someone doesn't need to wake up and go "I'm gonna be sexist today" for it to still be sexism.
    
    Thanks for writing an entire essay trying to disprove my experiences though.
    
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  - Elderos@lemmings.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    I figure those issues could be more statistically likely to happen to women, but as you highlighted this is something that tend to happen in tech regardless. I hate shouting match and talking over people, and I am definitely at a disadvantage when meetings reach a certain critical number of participants.
    
    The thing is, when I get talked over, or when my ideas are ignored only to be slightly reworded and repeated by some guy who hasn’t shut up the entire time, well first thing is I give no fucks. There is definitely privilege in the sense that as a man I don’t feel like I have to prove my worth, it is already assumed, so I don’t have to care about looking good in every meeting. Also, as a man, when I am mostly ignored because people are too eager to speak rather than listen, my first assumption is that those people simply suck at meetings. I have the privilege of knowing that it is not discrimination.
    
    Simply doubting that discrimination can exist is mentally exgausting. 20 years ago I was LGBTQ in a rather unaccepting environment, but it rarely came up, nor did most people knew. Everytime my presense or my ideas weren’t fully acknowledged with alprobation I doubted of this was about my identity. I became very insecure about it over time, I simply assumed that I would never be respected as an equal, ever. Well, 20 years later and I am pretty sure this insecurity drippled like crazy in my personality and apparent confidence. This hurt me way more than the perceived prejudice I am sure.
    
    Anyway, I am just trying to throw in some food for thoughts. There is a lot of competition of ideas going on in tech, and very little positive feedback, and a lot of talking over people, because this is just how a lot ofen are unfortunately. I fully understand why people who are more likely to be prejudiced against would perceive all sort of false signals in there.
    
    Disclaimer: I know sexism is a real thing, and some women are absolutely being victimized in the workplace. I am merely expanding on the idea that it is because real sexism exists that it is extra important to learn how to be respectful and have good vibes in the workplace.
    
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- insaneinthemembrane@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Yeah it really is the worst when you have to fight for something that men get without barely trying. And those same men will give advise on how to do it too, completely disregarding how responses are different for women, IE they’re not listening.
  
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totallynotarobot@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
The only way to change culture is by example. Stand up to this behaviour when you see it perpetrated against your coworkers, especially if you’re male. Double especially if you’re in a position of power.

If you run a company, don’t overwork and abuse your employees, and make it safe for them to report these things (hint: this is not achieved by saying the words “this is a safe space”), then really deal with them.

Agree with the other commenter that unions are necessary, but you can’t solve cultural problems with regulation alone. All workers should be represented for lots of reasons, and this is one of them, but to collectively be better we have to individually and collectively model decent behaviour.

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- asteriskeverything@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I agree with everything but your first paragraph hits the nail on the head! I wanna print it out and frame it. Place it in every office. It may feel awkward and scary, but it is so much more awkward and scary for the recipient(s) of the behavior and speaking up has a lot more risk for them than it would from a third party. It could be a simple “not cool/that’s too far” type comment with a chuckle. Fuck it just try something.
  
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  - totallynotarobot@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    Well said.
    
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- atzanteol@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  The only way to fix culture is to fire people who suck. Forcing people to take shitty “edib” training is useless, but lets companies feel like they’re addressing the problem.
  
  If you needed to be told to treat women with respect you’re not going to learn how to in a 15 minute training video.
  
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gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
HR != employee advocates.

HR has one core job: prevent employees from hurting the company. Sure, they help with payroll and benefits and recruiting and stuff, but at the end of the day, the true purpose of HR is that simple. Sometimes HR’s interests will align with your interests and good ethics in general. Sometimes they don’t. This doesn’t mean that you should default to having an antagonistic relationship with HR - in fact, you should definitely not do that. But you should also remember that HR’s goals may or may not align with your own. They are working for the company, not for you.

True worker representation can only be done by - you guessed it - workers.

Unionize. Solidarity forever.

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- scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  You’re out wrong but it’s slightly more nuanced. Hurting people can hurt the company. If the company needs workers, it needs them. If they’re damaged or chased away by bad conditions, that makes it harder for the company to get and keep the people it needs. People’s treatment is also governed by laws. So if they are treated really wrong it can hurt the company in the form of penalties or even worse, bad PR like we see here.
  
  So yeah, HR are not your friends, but it’s silly to lean too hard on the idea that they never help or protect employees. It’s in the company’s interest to do so, and so yes, they will do some of that.
  
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CanadianNomad@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
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- Clevermistakes@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Right? And it says she’s in Vancouver. That’s how you know she’s desperate because her wait time at VGH would have her bled out in the waiting room!
  
  In all seriousness though; this screams wildly of startup bro culture. Especially the part where she said they had this “verbal agreement” yeah, they didn’t want anything written down because they know how screwed they’d be.
  
  I hope she lawyers up!
  
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dipshit@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
one thing men can do is start treating women who work at tech companies or who work in tech as people who understand technology. it’s a small first step. men need to do better.

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darkstar@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I just read through Madison’s whole account of what happened and all the comments here. I have a few key takeaways:

People are naive - Get shit in writing. Verbal promises aren’t worth a damn.

Experience matters - It sounds to me like Madison, Colton, and most of the management staff have no idea how to properly manage (up or down). This is a massive problem, but not a surprise. I can say the same for the people in the comments here. You WILL be in shitty situations at work. How you navigate them matters and will determine if your claims will be successful. The most important thing I can tell her, them, and all of you is KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!

Most people have no idea what they’re talking about - Everyone saying that the government needs to always be involved, or that this is why we need unions has no idea what the fuck they’re talking about. I’m not anti-union, I’m anti-bureaucracy. You think things moved too slowly when you asked for a mirror? Wait until there are MORE people in between that MUST be involved.

Her mental health is concerning - I don’t know if her mental health issues existed before LMG, but they don’t do much besides detract from her potentially valid points. I’m concerned this will be used to dismiss the issues she encountered rather than fix them. I, personally, didn’t have a high opinion of her when I saw her for the first time (I think it was one of the videos where fans get a custom computer). It makes me wonder how much of this is overblown, but that doesn’t mean her complaints are all invalid. This will be a tough road for her.

The key takeaway, again, is KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!! You have a complaint? Write it in an email. Send it to the intended recipient, and CC HR or BCC your personal email. If you don’t have a paper trail of issues, you will lose. You were asked by your manger or by HR to solve the problem yourself by talking to the other person? Get them to verify that in writing. They’ll backpedal REALLY quickly if they have any sense. A verbal warning? That means jack shit. It can’t be held against you because the company has no paper trail (see? This cuts both ways.) An agreement where they gave you certain assurances verbally? Email the person with a summary of the conversation as you understood it and ask for confirmation of your understanding.

All of this is how you protect yourself as an employee and as an employer. GET SHIT IN WRITING and then use those notes as proof if you need to appeal to a higher authority (HR, upper management, or the government arm responsible for labor issues). And yeah, people have trouble like this because people don’t speak out. You need to not just KNOW your rights, but also EXERCISE THEM.

I say all of this as somebody in a management position. Employees rarely know what the inner workings for disciplinary issues looks like, or how long it takes to be carried out. A complaint doesn’t simply result in termination unless it’s egregious (in which case your complaint needs to be DOCUMENTED BY YOU AS WELL, not just left in the hands of HR or management). I live my life by “trust but verify”. I only trust one person to act in my best interest, and that’s me, so I’m going to give me the best chance of doing that by DOCUMENTING EVERYTHING.

That said, you all need to understand that managing people doesn’t start with a management position. Every relationship needs to be managed and curated. You need something from Suzy? Ask her nicely. Still didn’t get that thing? Email her. Maybe she’s just busy or forgot (but you’ve started your paper trail). No response from Suzy? Follow up on your email and CC her manager. Consider CCing or BCCing your manager as well. Suzy may not like it, but you’re just doing your job. The same rules apply when you’re managing up. Sometimes you’ll get an absolute turd of a manager. It WILL happen, so be prepared to deal with it. It will absolutely suck to deal with, and you will be frustrated, but you’ll have documentation of your position, not a pissing contest between two people.

Am I getting my point across? You’re not a unique snowflake, you’re another cog in the machine. Protect yourself (and others!) by documenting and verifying. And if you see somebody being treated like shit, it’s your job to also raise that!!! Just because it’s not happening to you doesn’t mean you should ignore it. You felt uncomfortable when somebody else got publicly berated? FUCKING SAY SOMETHING! I had a rather incompetent manager start to chastise me in front of the employees I managed at the time. I was 18 or 19 back then. I asked her to stop and to follow me. We went to a separate area and I proceeded to explain to her that I didn’t appreciate what she did. Her complaints may have been valid, but the way she handled it was inappropriate, and I asked her to make sure that if she has a problem with me in the future to please bring it to me privately. She saw the problem and agreed that she was wrong in how she handled it, and thanked me for my handling of the situation. YOU CAN DO THIS, TOO! You can email HR and the CEO after he storms into your area and goes off on somebody. You can say that you felt unsafe in that moment, and that you don’t appreciate how that person was treated. You can stand up for others and for yourself. If you want to be successful in your career YOU NEED TO LEARN TO MANAGE UP!
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- TORFdot0@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Thank you for this well-written and thought out post. I agree wholeheartedly with your entire post, you basically said my thoughts but with tact. I’ve been trying to come up with a way to express my take on the situation but was struggling to without sounding unfair to either Madison or LMG.
  
  It really sounds like everyone was working “at their dream job” and that’s a bad thing because of you are working your “dream job” the temptation is there to put aside your integrity, mental health, and self-advocacy and also subjugate your coworkers in order to keep it. The insane upload schedule in order to keep on the right side of the algorithm doesn’t help the culture too.
  
  Ultimately it looks like company never grew up from its roots as a small group of guys having fun making content for the internet and as people were hired to their “dream job” things were no longer “guys having fun” and instead were ingrained as a toxic work culture
  
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  - darkstar@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    You’re right. This is what happens when things are lax. Nobody wants to be bureaucratic for no reason. Everybody tries to avoid being too serious too soon. There’s a reason business jargon is its own meme. But there’s also a reason that things trend in that direction for established companies. You need structure for your managers and employees if you want to stop tripping over yourself and you want accountability.
    
    I had a friend of mine recently approach me about an issue he was having with his employees at his small business. My first question was whether they have an employee handbook that says they can’t do the things he’s trying to prevent (drug or alcohol use on the clock). Working with heavy machinery doesn’t mix well with drugs and alcohol, but if people aren’t told they can’t then there’s a chance they will. This might sound obvious, but because they’re a small company they were trying to “be fun” and not stuffy. They had beer in the fridge at work for people to crack open on Friday afternoons after a long week. Unfortunately, they weren’t only drinking it on Friday afternoons, and they were also smoking weed on company grounds before operating heavy machinery. At some point you have to say enough is enough and drop the fun when people can’t be responsible.
    
    Managing people is like being a therapist, a friend, a parent, and a lawyer all in one. And worse, people don’t seem to grow up much (if at all) beyond high school. People come to you with their personal problems (or sometimes don’t, but a performance issue may arise from a personal problem at home), people need encouragement and honest feedback, people need a firm hand and to be guided and given direction, and you also need to protect the company from potential litigation by saying the right thing or not saying the wrong thing, as well as the need to protect employees from themselves, each other, and third parties (contractors, vendors, clients, and customers). Managing is hard, and that’s why companies mandate HR training for management positions. Furthermore, cases are rarely, if ever, clear cut. Two people have a problem with each other? Time to put aside the work I had planned for today and go figure out why these two assholes can’t get along. It sounds like managers at LMG need more training, and Colton might not be the right person to lead HR. Employees need to be adults, but also need to be able to rely on management to help them resolve issues they can’t resolve themselves. Telling them to figure it out and talk to the other party isn’t good enough. LMG needs to do better
    
    I often use the phrase “put on my big boy pants”, but have never told an employee to “put on their big boy/girl pants”. I’ve joked that “reading is fundamental” when I misread or skim something and come to the wrong conclusion, but never when somebody else does. That said, I’ve told an employee that they’re acting childish, and explained why I expected more from them. The issues I’m hearing seem to stem from just being relatively young people and being a relatively recently established company. You can’t talk to your employees like you talk to your friends. Hell, I was privileged enough to hire a friend recently, and I compartmentalize personal and work. If not, I might end up doing something that could damage the company. I know how much to trust him with, so it’s not like my personal experience with him doesn’t factor in at all, but I need to choose how much to share, when to share it, and how to share it, even if I want to tell him everything I might know about a particular situation. Maybe if he didn’t work for me I’d be more likely to share privileged information because he doesn’t work for the same company, but now that he does I need to make sure I don’t say something that puts him in a bad spot to know, and doesn’t put me in a bad spot if he slips up and divulges privileged knowledge. It sounds like some of the managers at LMG aren’t making these distinctions and simply approach work situations like they would personal ones.
    
    “That’s not how I meant it” isn’t a valid defense, at least in the US, when it comes to HR complaints. It doesn’t matter what you meant, but how it was received by others. I’d say they overlooked this one rule a lot based on Madison’s writeup, and I’m not, at all, surprised. But, like I said, this comes down to poor training.
    
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Darkhoof@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
This is not an issue just with tech but with many other sectors. If it has to be tackled first in tech, then so be it.

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scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I’m a little unclear what “tech industry” means here. I lead a software development team that puts out a consumer app. Am I in the same “tech industry” as a bunch of yo-yos who produce videos about gaming cards? It doesn’t seem that way to me.

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- sweeny@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  This is needlessly splitting hairs, Linus Tech Tips is absolutely part of the tech industry, and the parallels to other horror stories of the tech industry are too great to ignore. The people working on these videos are tech professionals similar to yourself, they test software similar to what you make, they have a company culture similar to tech startups, and other tech professionals consume their videos giving them influence in the tech community. They may not be doing the same thing in the industry as you are, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t part of it.
  
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just_another_person@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Is LTT really even part of the tech industry? It’s mostly a content mill from I’ve seen in the past week.

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cloaker@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Lmg is a cancer. That thread was horrifying to read.

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- cybersandwich@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  You realize those were tweets from a disgruntled ex employee, right?
  
  They may be 100% accurate. But she decided to take advantage of the furor around LTT to have her position amplified. That’s pretty clever(she was the social media person afterall).
  
  A couple things to keep in mind:no one else has corroborated these. why hasn’t anyone else come forward? There are other women at LTT and plenty of former employees–some who have been let go. But we haven’t heard anything else even remotely like this. Aside from the “we are moving too fast/this is a hustle” critiques.
  
  She also alleges that LTT made her cut herself to get out of work. That’s absurd. Plenty of people work stressful jobs and don’t cut themselves. This indicates, to me, that she has quite a bit more going on emotionally/mentally than just basic work stress.
  
  I don’t want to disparage or minimize her allegations, but this is exactly why an outside investigator is a good move. I just wish people wouldn’t automatically assume the worst of Linus and LTT because of some tweets.
  
  From the things we do know from current employees is, it’s a fantastic place to work–aside from the pace which they have acknowledged and are addressing. Linus and Luke seem to be fairly reasonable and pro worker.
  
  The channel super fun stuff also shows some insights into the environment and it doesn’t look like a toxic hellscape and I truly believe Linus and Yvonne are good people. … My guess is that there are nuggets of truth to some of the claims but that the serious ones are overstated or have been perceived by someone dealing with some issues.
  
  I hope I’m not wrong, but I want get my pitchfork out until there’s hard evidence.
  
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