Submitted 1 day ago by DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works to showerthoughts@lemmy.world
I mean, take USA for example, is it even the same country after each amendment? After a Civil War? Civil Rights Movement? Landmark Court Rullings?
One could argue that Modern America began in 1965, with the passing of the Civil Rights Act. Or in 2001 when the Patriot Act was passed. Or in 2009 with Citizens United Court Ruling. Or in January 2017 when… you know. Or in January 2025.
When did the country really start?
San Marino is probably the best candidate IMO
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Marino
San Marino claims to have been founded in AD 301 and to be the oldest extant sovereign state and the oldest constitutional republic.
This is kind of a hilarious post from a US perspective. Legitimate question from the perspective of some European countries, hilariously naive trying to apply it to the US.
Well yeah. Egypt is still called egypt but its not run by pharoahs. Iraq is not sumer.
That’s a nice situation: you see, the answer is completely unimportant and affects nothing. So you can use whatever answer fits your set of arbitrary criteria. You want to show that the country is old? Use the first mention of the name. Very industrious? Use factories per mountain formula, etc…
OP using your logic I define a country as a name, a collection of people and a consistent government.
If you are really going to list every amendment and significant court case as the start of a new government than it would be fair to say no government in the world is older than 10 years.
Turkey is a good candidate. Göbekli Tepe was settled some 10,000+ years ago.
It’s really funny the only main thing about Turkey that didn’t change in last few thousand years is just “ah there is also a lot of cats around.”
Where were the Egyptian cats supposed to go when Egypt fell / was conquered? The Ottoman and Roman Empires were prosperous, ergo they were the perfect societies for cats to enslave next lol
Kind of funny to think of cats thriving in so many countries that got repeatedly raided, conquered, and reestablished by multiple different empires and cultures. Everyone dies eventually but the cats stay haha
I mean, take USA for example, is it even the same country after each amendment? After a Civil War? Civil Rights Movement? Landmark Court Rullings?
Yes, I’d say it’s very much the same country after any of those. Those are not country altering events.
When did the country really start?
Somewhere between the country declaring itself as such (or declaring independence) and being recognised by others.
Really relies on what you define as a “country”, and how those definitions might even have changed across time.
The US is probably one of the easiest ones.
Enter Europe:
Has the German Reich with its king been a country?
Then what about the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, which today is undoubtetly a country but has also been a part of the German Reich, following its king?
Similar goes for other claims of age.
We have e.g. 3 “oldest” cities in my country, each relying on a slightly different definition of “city”.
The Reepublic of San Marino has been independent for a very long time, possibly since 301 ce, that would make it a 1700 years old country that never changed its form of government.
Even more far fetched: Italian fascism considered itself the continuation of the Roman Empire (the middle ages did not count, somehow). Does it mean that they were 2000 years old for a bit? But then, nowadays Italy consider itself the descendant of fascism (with a tinge of shame) but not of the Roman Empire. Can we pick and choose our lineage?
China consider itself ti have been a consistent country since (handwave) basically forever. Is that enough?
Iran and Egypt
These are actually really interesting examples.
Take Iran:
On the one hand the area were it is located has had organized societies occupying it for an insanely long time.
This would make it one of the oldest countries by this definition.
On the other hand: when asked the question if the current Iran was the same country as back in the 1970’s, I would certainly say: “No.”
Occupied area and even some of the people might still be the same, but the cultural, societal and governmental characteristics have changed too radically to still be considered the same.
So, by this definition, Iran would be one of the youngest countries.
I think that incertainty is what OP was getting at:
How much change do we allow to still consider a country the same as at a previous time in history?
That makes sense and I agree with the changes in Iran would make it one of the youngest. Not sure of cultural changes through the AD time period. 3000 BCE is the stat for Iran “beginning”, that’s a long ass time lol.
I agree though, and it’s almost an impossible question to answer because every country has gone through cultural changes.
I would say a better answer would be the Sentinelese people on North Sentinel Island. Untouched culture and isolation from the rest of the modern world for 60k years.
Apparently the Isle of Man’s parliament is around 1000 years old, but it’s not a country
iirc, in Political Theory or International Relations they have more precise definitions of what makes up a “nation” vs a “country”… I did a quick search tho and can’t find a good summary.
I think you need to define a country. My perception would be a place when a civilisation consisting of more than 3 regional groups to share the same common rules, and it clear boundaries and a name.
webghost0101@sopuli.xyz 1 day ago
Supposedly Australian aboriginal groups have lived in the same region for 40k+ years.
They have regional consistency, genetic continuity over which culture gradually evolved each generation.
Does that count?
trashcroissant@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
Same with indigenous people on turtle island (north america).
I’d argue that the concept of ‘country’ though is more colonial in its origins so realistically, a ‘country’ wouldn’t exist until after colonization in these areas. Nations might’ve existed with different groups/tribes/villages sharing a culture, but the concepts of clear-cut borders, strict land ownership, and nationalism (which to me are a requirement for the concept of a “country”) are significantly different in many indigenous cultures as compared to colonial states. Maybe with the exception of some Latin American empires? Though I don’t know enough about those empires to be confident in that.
Cherry@piefed.social 1 day ago
Isnt there evidence the First Nations came from Indonesia? Or Polynesia?
pulsewidth@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
South east Asia via land bridges during ice ages is the current dominant theory I believe. Indonesia wouldn’t be accurate, more like Papua New Guinea - but both of those countries are far newer than when the original Aboriginal’s descendants crossed. Genetically they’re closest to PNG AFAIK.
As an aside, Dingoes (genetically distinct from dogs, Canus familiaris) came over much more recently, also believed to be during a land bridge during an ice age ~3,500 years ago from south east Asia - specifically PNG also. They’re most closely related to New Guinean Singing Dogs and share the same taxonomic rank under ‘Canus lupus dingo’.