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Comment on Father sues Google, claiming Gemini chatbot drove son into fatal delusion

People don’t often realize how subtle changes in language can change our thought process. It’s just how human brains work sometimes.

The old bit about smoking and praying is a great example. If you ask a priest if it’s alright to smoke when you pray, they’re likely to say no, as your focus should be on your prayers and not your cigarette. But if you ask a priest if it’s alright to pray a little while you’re smoking, they’d probably say yes, as you should feel free to pray to God whenever you need…

Now, make a machine that’s designed to be agreeable, relatable, and make persuasive arguments but that can’t separate fact from fiction, can’t reason, has no way of intuiting it’s user’s mental state beyond checking for certain language parameters, and can’t know if the user is actually following it’s suggestions with physical actions or is just asking for the next step in a hypothetical process. Then make machine try to keep people talking for as long as possible…

You get one answer that leads you a set direction, then another, then another… It snowballs a bit as you get deeper in. Maybe something shocks you out of it, maybe the machine sucks you back in. The descent probably isn’t a steady downhill slope, it rolls up and down from reality to delusion a few times before going down sharply.

Are we surprised some people’s thought processes and decision making might turn extreme when exposed to this? The only question is how many people will be affected and to what degree.

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HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

People don’t often realize how subtle changes in language can change our thought process.

just changing a single word in your daily usage can change your entire outlook from negative to positive. it’s strange, but unless you’ve experienced it yourself how such minute changes can have such large effects it’s hard to believe.

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- BranBucket@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  And this is hard for me, actually. Because of my work background and the jargon used, I’m unconsciously negative about things a lot of the time. It’s a tough habit to break.
  
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  - HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    Oh, me too. I’m just innately full of negative self talk. I try to direct positivity outward if I can’t aim it at myself at least
    
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    lukaro@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    I refuse to share a bad mood if at all possible.
    
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CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

Are we surprised some people’s thought processes and decision making might turn extreme when exposed to this?

Yes, actually. I’m not doubting the power of language, but I cannot ever see something anyone ever says alter my sense of reality or right from wrong.

I had a “friend” say to me recently “why do you always go against the grain?” My reply was “I will go against the grain for the rest of my life if it means doing or saying what’s right”.

I guess my point is that I have a very hard time relating to this.

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- BranBucket@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  
  I guess my point is that I have a very hard time relating to this.
  
  That’s fair. In the same vein, you might find a priest that tells you to stop smoking for your health no matter how you phrase the question about lighting up and prayer. What people are receptive to is going to vary.
  
  I’d like argue that more of us are susceptible to this sort of thing than we suspect, but that’s not really something that can be proved or disproved. What seems pretty certain is that at least some of us are at risk, and given all the other downsides of chatbots, it’d be best to regulate them in a hurry.
  
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  - Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    Sure, that’s why propaganda can be so powerful. It’s not just what is said, it’s how it’s said. And pretty much everyone if 3 vulnerable to the right propaganda - especially people who think they’re not vulnerable to propaganda.
    
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    BranBucket@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    Absolutely, and the medium can make a huge difference as well. I suspect that there’s something about chatbots and the medium of their messages that helps set those hooks extra deep in people.
    
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  - CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    
    you might find a priest that tells you to stop smoking for your health no matter how you phrase the question about lighting up and prayer. What people are receptive to is going to vary.
    
    Ya, I’ve read the thing about praying and smoking in another comment. The funny thing is that I have very specific opinions about smoking and would argue that smoking while praying is disrespectful, but God would listen in any case.
    
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    BranBucket@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    It’s more about how the slightly different questions lead the hypothetical priest to two separate and contradictory conclusions than disrespecting God.
    
    At any rate, all opinions on tobacco and prayer are fine by me, just watch out for any friends you think might be talking to chatbots a little too much.
    
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Zink@programming.dev ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

Then make the machine try to keep people talking for as long as possible…

That’s probably a huge part of it. How many billions of dollars have been spent engineering content on a screen to get its tendrils into people’s minds and attention and not let go?

EnGaGeMent!!!

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- BranBucket@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  This is also part of my broader gripe with social media, cable news, and the current media landscape in general. They use so many sneaky little psychological hooks to keep you plugged in that I honestly believe it’s screwing with our heads to the point of it being a public health crisis.
  
  People are already frazzled and beat down by the onslaught of dopamine feedback loops and outrage bait, then you go and get them hooked on a charbot that feeds into every little neurosies they’ve developed and just sinks those hooks in even deeper and it’s no wonder some people are having a mental health crisis.
  
  A lot of us vastly overestimate our resistance to having our heads jacked with and it worries me.
  
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  - Zink@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    100% agreed. I agreed more with each paragraph.
    
    Your last sentence hit on what I think is a contributing if not primary driving factor in the health crisis you described.
    
    It’s like the goal of modern society is to insulate us from the natural world and from learning subjects or doing tasks that we don’t absolutely have to.
    
    But we are critters that evolved on this planet just like the others. You can’t just live a commoditized life that consists of work, car, screen, sleep, repeat and get the same fulfillment out of life as if you found the unique path that’s optimized for your unique brain.
    
    Not acknowledging that everything jacks with your head to SOME degree only prevents you from trying to defend yourself as best you can!
    
    Over the past several years I have gone through a transition from living life the way I was supposed to, or that I thought I wanted to, to living according to what produces the best outputs from my brain. Once I have the lived experience of an undeniable improvement from some change, it might actually become a habit.
    
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how_we_burned@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
This is really well written. Great post.

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- BranBucket@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  Thanks!
  
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Nomorereddit@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
Gtfo here. I grew up in xbox live chat rooms w the most vile language imaginable. I am now a senior Mgr with 100 ppl under me.

And ill just say, ill no scope them in a heart beat if they spawn camp…

…I mean I drive productivity at the speed of trust.

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- dtaylor84@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  You also seem to be illiterate.
  
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  - Nomorereddit@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    I’m on lemmy, so that’s a given.
    
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Ulrich@feddit.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

But if you ask a priest if it’s alright to pray while you’re smoking, they’d probably say yes, as you should feel free to pray to God whenever you need…

When would a priest ever tell anyone it’s not okay to pray?

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- BranBucket@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  It’s the opinion on smoking, not praying, that differs.
  
  In both cases you’re praying and smoking at the same time, so your actions don’t change, but the priest rationalizes two completely different answers based on the way the question is posed. It’s just an example to show how two contradictory answers can seem rational to the same person.
  
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  - Ulrich@feddit.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    
    the priest rationalizes two completely different answers based on the way the question is posed.
    
    No, the priest is answering 2 different questions:
    
    Is it okay to smoke, to which the answer is always going to be no.
    
    It is okay to pray, to which the answer is always going to be yes.
    
    What else they’re doing doesn’t impact the question.
    
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    BranBucket@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    Those aren’t the same questions from the original post. You’ve omitted half the information given to the priest in each question.
    
    Both questions, in their entirety, deal with smoking and praying. The subject is smoking and praying. You’ve reframed this as a question about smoking, and a question about praying and that was never the case.
    
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  - sudoer777@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    
    the priest rationalizes two completely different answers based on the way the question is posed. It’s just an example to show how two contradictory answers can seem rational to the same person because of the language used.
    
    They aren’t contradictory though. Basically what they are saying is just praying > praying + smoking > just smoking.
    
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    BranBucket@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    But in both cases, the person is asking to do the same thing. The order of the words in the sentence doesn’t change the end result, we always wind up with someone smoking and praying simultaneously, which may or may not be against God’s will.
    
    Strip away the justifications and simplify the word choices and you get this:
    
    May I smoke while I pray? No, you may not.
    
    May I pray while I smoke? Yes, you may.
    
    Given that, can you say if it is right or wrong to smoke and pray simultaneously?
    
    And again, this is just a hypothetical scenario. In the broader context of life, religion, and tobacco use, it’ll never be this simple, but it works for an example.
    
    Now, someone might point out that by simplifying the wording, I’ve changed the meaning of the original statement to make it fit my argument, and that now it means something else. But that’s essentially my original point, phrasing and word choices can shape our reasoning, though pricesses, and how we interpret meaning in ways we aren’t immediately aware of, leading us to different conclusions or even delusional thinking in some cases.
    
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Eh_I@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
Good bot

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