I got solar this year and am selling. The cost has directly increased the value of my home.
Comment on How I Installed DIY Solar Power and Started Running My House on Batteries
Canconda@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Some thoughts from a solar fan boy who knows more about finance than electronics.
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The average time to pay off solar panels (7-12 years) is still longer than the average time most first time home owners (at least before 2015). So it’s still not as viable an option for a lot of people for people who plan on selling within 10 years.
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There is less home ownership overall. More of us are renting and there is no incentive for these installs.
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If these systems could be reasonably relocated and reinstalled, that would probably shift the financial equation drastically.
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How close are we to solar breakthroughs in materials/production that might incentivize waiting?
Squizzy@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
lemming741@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
What’s the ratio?
Squizzy@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I dont know. Im up money monthly and my realtor said it adds more than it costs.
Polisheocket@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
The only way solar adds value is one of three ways:
- it’s paid off
- it’s paid off 3 ) if monthly payment is less then electric bill
I’m in a real estate family and I’ve seen solar ruin deals, lose sellers lots of money.
How does solar ruin deals. Buyer can’t afford monthly payment. How does it lose sellers lots of money, they can’t find a buyer so they will be forced to pay it off.
lemming741@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I’ve got some bad news for you…
budget_biochemist@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
Re 1: Doesn’t the solar add value to the home though? That makes it viable even if selling as you can sell for more.
Re 2: The incentive is potentially on the landlord in these cases, to rent out a solar powered home for more. 35% of Australian homes have rooftop solar, many of those are rentals, because people will pay $10 more rent knowing they will save $20 on their bills.
povoq@slrpnk.net@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago To answer these:
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Increase in house value due to solar system is likely making this moot.
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Small “balcony solar” system work fine for renters.
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See 2. and for larger systems 1.
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Very unlikely to see a major market unheaval in the next 10 years that would make things cheaper. The real price improvement happend in the last 10 years, and the price difference between LiFePO4 batteries and Sodium-Ion ones will not be large enough for it to matter in small systems.
zod000@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
#1 absolutely is not accurate. My last house had a $40k solar system installed and it maybe raised my home value by $10k per my appraiser. I still thought it was fine because I had intended to live there forever. I ended up moving four years later :(
- povoq@slrpnk.net@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
Sounds like you paid 40k for a system that’s worth around 10k. That absolutely happens with some companies that do the full installation, but it is a total rip off.
zod000@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
The system was worth more than $10k (it was the largest allowed by law), but a good chunk of the cost was definitely the installation and 20 years full warranty. Luckily I was able to transfer that to the new owner. I have been specifically told that essentially all improvements you can do to a home won’t reflect the their cost in the sell value for the most part. You’re lucky to get 25% in most cases, solar is actually better than most things because it is fairly universally desired. Some things do better than other regionally, e.g. in ground pools can get most of their value in FL apparently as long as you don’t go overboard on costs.
Canconda@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Respectfully, you are trying to generalize real estate based on your local market. That simply doesn’t work. See my other comment on balcony solar for a clear example. Your 4th point is pure speculation with no argument backing it.
I’m not saying solar isn’t viable. Just using my experience in mortgage financing to add more context to the conversation.
- povoq@slrpnk.net@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
Sure, if balcony solar isn’t legal in your place, that is an issue, but more and more places make it legal recently.
As for the realestate market, sure there are conservative realtors that currently undervalue solar systems, but people aren’t stupid. If it makes economic sense to have them in the first place, then most buyers will also make the same calculation and be willing to pay extra, because in the end they will save money compared to a house without solar.
Canconda@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Legalizing it would mean aligning it with the electrical code and running it through the breaker box which introduces prohibitive installation costs. It’s a safety issue, not just politics.
conservative realtors
Again respectfully, you are applying reasoning to real estate that simply does play out that way. Look up the first 3 rules of real estate. There is no substance for me to refute what you are saying because it is fundamentally anecdotal conjecture.
people aren’t stupid. If it makes economic sense
I gotta walk away from this convo bro. The biggest flaw with economic theory in general is that it assumes people make rational decisions.
in the end they will save money compared to a house without solar.
I’m not saying they won’t. I’m saying that the context where that happens doesn’t align with many peoples financial objectives and local real estate markets.
livligkinkajou@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
Regarding 1, perhaps you are the one trying to generalize your local market to everywhere else?
See:
Arizona, USA:
Soak up the sun: Impact of solar energy systems on residential home values in ArizonaIn particular, properties with electricity-generating solar panels enjoy an average premium of approximately $45,000 (15% of medium home value) and transaction price premium of $28,000 (17% of medium home sales price).
California, Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Oregon - USA:
Solar at High Noon: Solar Home Premiums in a Rapidly Maturing Market:We find clear evidence that solar systems are correlated with higher selling prices if those systems are owned by the homeowner (HO). Alternatively, we find no value or slightly lower values associated with non-owned panels
Southport, Australia:
House price premium associated with residential solar photovoltaics and the effect from feed-in tariffs: A case study of Southport in Queensland, AustraliaUsing the hedonic approach, the study found that the gross premium was 4.3% of the average house price; the average net premium (exclusive of the PV installation cost) was 21,403 AUD when the FiT was at 44 cents/kWh; when the FiT dropped to 8 cents/kWh, the gross premium fell to 2.4%, and the average net premium dropped to 5600 AUD. The study shows that a solar PV house does enjoy a premium in terms of property value and indicates that a higher solar rebate and subsidy leads to a higher premium
If energy efficiency increases by 100 kWh/m2a, prices increase by 6.9% on average […] there is evidence that about 98% of future energy cost savings are already reflected in a higher housing value under myopic expectations regarding future energy prices.
Italy:
The Market Price Premium for Residential PV PlantsOur results show that individuals are willing to pay an additional price for a solar home, and the average market price premium is equal to 2.69% for monocrystalline PV plants and equal to 3.08% for polycrystalline PV plants respectively.
UK:
Returns to solar panels in the housing market: A meta learner approachOur results point to a selling price premium above 6% (range between 6.1% to 7.1% depending on the meta-learner) associated with solar panels. Considering that the average selling price is £230,536 in our sample, this corresponds to an additional £14,062 to £16,368 selling price premium for houses with solar panels.
Canconda@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
So to do an accurate property value assesment (what you’re doing) you’d need to provide at least 5 examples from each of those regions, only including comparable properties.
I’m not saying solar doesn’t improve property value.
I’m saying you cannot take one example and apply it to an entire market. Which you just did x6.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
In Canada our electric code requires everything be connected to the breaker box so that electricians can work safely knowing there is no current in the building.
if a panel is plugged into the existing house circuits, shutting off the main breaker will shut off the current.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Increase in house value due to solar system is likely making this moot.
don’t buy this bullshit. has no effect on value, and likely has a negative impact as many DIY systems are hacks.
SteveKLord@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago Appreciate your passion and input but try to remain as constructive and kind as possible as calling another person’s informed opinions “bullshit” may not be appreciated. Thanks.
- povoq@slrpnk.net@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
Today a DIY system usually means a fully integrated system from a single Chinese supplier: hybrid inverter, BMS and batteries together. That is no hack, and no major difference (other than price) from what a professional company installs.
Having such a system absolutely raises the price of the house sold. Maybe not a full cost recovery, but enough to not make it a total loss if you end up selling before the usual return of investment period.
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captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
I know more about electronics than finance.
What I would do is take a more holistic approach to your home’s power system, with solar panels as one very useful tool in a well-stocked tool belt, that also includes:
- A time-of-use power plan from your energy company.
- A whole house battery
- A smart or programmable thermostat
- A few outlet timers
- An electric car charger with timer or some similar solution
I am currently on a standard rate power plan, I pay 14 cents a kilowatt-hour no matter the time of day. My power company offers a time-of-use plan that varies between 29 , 11 and 7 cents per kilowatt hour depending on the time of day. The game becomes, buy as little power as possible during the 3 hours it’s 29 cents, and as much as possible during the 5 hours while it’s 7 cents.
This might mean doing laundry and dishes at 1 in the morning, setting a timer to charge your EV at 1 in the morning, setting a thermostat to turn air conditioning off between the hours of 6 and 9, that sort of stuff. A battery system can store energy when it’s cheap for later use when it’s expensive. Solar power is then a further reduction in the amount of power you buy; in my area depending on time of year the solar producing parts of the day are either in mid- or discount-price times, so the bulk of your savings are coming from discounts and time shifting. They’d likely be more valuable during extended power failures than day to day power savings, as you’re unlikely to generate a dollar per day.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I know a decent amount about electronics, finance, and home solar.
Regional differences change the “best case” behavior drastically. For example, in my Midwestern state (with a still pitiful solar install base statewide), your list would be nearly the exact wrong ideal behavior. My state is about 10 years behind the leading states as far as solar installs and policy. So think back to California rules 10-15 years ago and that’s a pretty good idea what rules apply in my state which is quite an upside for solar home owners.
A time-of-use power plan from your energy company.
This would be a bad thing in my state. This would mean you would get paid the lowest amount of per KWh at the best time of production.
A whole house battery
Bad choice financially in my state. We have 1:1 net metering so the grid is the most cost efficient battery. I do have 10KWh of solar battery storage, but I don’t charge/discharge it daily and really have it for backup needs in case of a grid outage. Nothing about buying the battery is a good idea financially though in my state.
A smart or programmable thermostat
Not as useful on a heat pump where you want to generally run the same temp 24/7/365 to give the heat pump the most time to extra energy from the outside air and avoid large temperature swings triggering power hungry electric strip backup heating. A programmable thermostat is still useful for the occasional vacation hold though.
A few outlet timers
Not needed if not using TOU.
An electric car charger with timer or some similar solution
Generally not needed when not using TOU. Additionally, many EVs themselves have the timer built in so no need to have a timer on the EVSE. Full disclosure, I do charge EVs from midnight to 4AM because I have a separate meter from my electric company with a tariff that is “distribution fee”-free for every KWh for EV charging. This stacks with my 1:1 net metering, so I essentially get paid to charge EVs at night.
I am currently on a standard rate power plan, I pay 14 cents a kilowatt-hour no matter the time of day. My power company offers a time-of-use plan that varies between 29 , 11 and 7 cents per kilowatt hour depending on the time of day. The game becomes, buy as little power as possible during the 3 hours it’s 29 cents, and as much as possible during the 5 hours while it’s 7 cents.
I have no doubt you’ve chosen a good path for your state and electric company. You’ve put a lot of thought into optimizing it. My post is just highlighting that the rule to optimize against vary widely by region even in the same national borders.
Do you have a non-exporting solar system? If not what price to get per KWh during the various times of the day with your TOU power plan?
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
I don’t currently have a large scale system; I’m currently running my fridge and a few other things off of a portable solar/battery setup, as part of researching a whole home system. I’m on a standard rate plan, I pay 14c/kWh round the clock.
The ToU price and schedule for my region looks like this:
Peak is ~29c/kWh, Off-Peak is ~11c/kWh, Discount is ~7c/kWh. So I could save money if I just switched to the ToU plan and threw my main breaker 3 hours a day.
My local energy company’s exporting solar program is bad and about to get worse, to the point it’s out of the question. I’m not going to sell them power at mid-day for 3c/kWh and buy it back at damn near 30 at night. So the only real winning strategy here is the “ToU + battery time shift” and since the equipment needed to do that almost certainly has plugs for solar power, might as well put up some panels. Buying power at 7c/kWh in the early morning, generating your own power and not buying anything during the day while power is 11c/kWh, and then using the power you bought earlier when it costs 29c/kWh is the move.
Not as useful on a heat pump where you want to generally run the same temp 24/7/365 to give the heat pump the most time to extra energy from the outside air and avoid large temperature swings triggering power hungry electric strip backup heating. A programmable thermostat is still useful for the occasional vacation hold though.
This isn’t congruent with my understanding of how heat pumps work. Electric strips are going to kick on in extreme cold if/when the heat pump can’t keep up, or for defrosting the outdoor unit. Every heat pump I’ve used, unless they frost up, will happily heat a house to 80 degrees from 32 without kicking on the emergency heat until and unless it needs to defrost. I’ve never personally seen one kick on heat strips simply for increased Delta-T, not without manually putting it in EM-HEAT mode.
I don’t currently own a heat pump, I have an air conditioner and a condensing furnace. My long term plan is to have the air conditioner replaced with a heat pump, and keep the furnace for emergency heat instead of strips. I recently learned that in North Carolina, if a given heat pump system is calculated to keep the home up to a certain temperature on the typical coldest night in the county, backup heat is not legally required. Defrost will be achieved by running the unit in AC mode, so you’ll occasionally get a blast of cold air from the vents.
Neither my air conditioner nor my furnace run 24/7/365, both are duty cycle modulated, they turn on and off throughout the day and night to maintain temperature. Here in late September I actually have the system switched entirely off and my windows are open, because it’s a comfy 65F outside tonight. Spring and fall are comfortable enough that I just don’t run HVAC for 4 months a year.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I don’t currently have a large scale system; I’m currently running my fridge and a few other things off of a portable solar/battery setup, as part of researching a whole home system.
I had already done the research I needed and was ready to put in a larger house-attached grid-tied system slightly before the current generation of portable battery/panel setup came out. For your situation, I agree you are taking the right approach.
I’m on a standard rate plan, I pay 14c/kWh round the clock.
Can I ask if the 14c/KWh is the rate you pay for generation only or the whole cost to deliver 1 KWh to your house (transmission,distriubtion,generation,customer connection plus fees). Put another way, if you consumed 1000KWh in a month would you have exactly a $140 electric bill?
The ToU price and schedule for my region looks like this:
Peak is ~29c/kWh, Off-Peak is ~11c/kWh, Discount is ~7c/kWh. So I could save money if I just switched to the ToU plan and threw my main breaker 3 hours a day.
My local energy company’s exporting solar program is bad and about to get worse, to the point it’s out of the question. I’m not going to sell them power at mid-day for 3c/kWh and buy it back at damn near 30 at night.
Ouch, so even on the fixed rate power plan you essentially 4.67:1 net export (as in you have to export 4 KWh at midday to import 1 KWh any other time of day)?
So the only real winning strategy here is the “ToU + battery time shift” and since the equipment needed to do that almost certainly has plugs for solar power, might as well put up some panels. Buying power at 7c/kWh in the early morning, generating your own power and not buying anything during the day while power is 11c/kWh, and then using the power you bought earlier when it costs 29c/kWh is the move.
Yep, in your state, I agree TOU+battery is likely the best way to go limiting import as much as possible.
Not as useful on a heat pump where you want to generally run the same temp 24/7/365 to give the heat pump the most time to extra energy from the outside air and avoid large temperature swings triggering power hungry electric strip backup heating. A programmable thermostat is still useful for the occasional vacation hold though.
This isn’t congruent with my understanding of how heat pumps work. Electric strips are going to kick on in extreme cold if/when the heat pump can’t keep up, or for defrosting the outdoor unit. Every heat pump I’ve used, unless they frost up, will happily heat a house to 80 degrees from 32 without kicking on the emergency heat until and unless it needs to defrost.
For modern heat pumps your experience is mostly still applicable. The exception is the “comfort” settings most vendor thermostats incorporate. If a temperature increase is indicated by the operator above a certain set point, the system interprets this as a call for rapid heating and will run the condenser at 100% but also kick on electric strips to reach the called for temperature much sooner.
I’ve never personally seen one kick on heat strips simply for increased Delta-T, not without manually putting it in EM-HEAT mode.
I don’t currently own a heat pump, I have an air conditioner and a condensing furnace.
When we bought this house it had natural gas furnace too. Not only was the gas expensive, but during the warmer months the minimum require “connection fee” continued to get hit with price increases even when zero gas was consumed. When we finally replace the heat pump the connection fee was $40/month. My neighbors tell me its risen to $70/month now and none of that money goes toward consumed gas.
My long term plan is to have the air conditioner replaced with a heat pump, and keep the furnace for emergency heat instead of strips.
I considered a dual fuel setup like that, but the economics of the connection fee negated any value. I’ll be the first to say that my January and February electricity bills are very high, but all of the saving from not having natural gas, and being able to heat with solar generated heat pump in the spring and fall very much still make it financially worth it for this setup.
I recently learned that in North Carolina, if a given heat pump system is calculated to keep the home up to a certain temperature on the typical coldest night in the county, backup heat is not legally required. Defrost will be achieved by running the unit in AC mode, so you’ll occasionally get a blast of cold air from the vents.
I can run my heat pump in AC Defrost mode too, but the **Wife Acceptance Factor ** goes way down doing that so we run electric strips for the defrost cycle.
Neither my air conditioner nor my furnace run 24/7/365, both are duty cycle modulated, they turn on and off throughout the day and night to maintain temperature.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear. I wasn’t suggesting my heat pump is running 24/7/365, quite the opposite. Rather, the thermostat is set to a single temperature and, unlike gas heating, there is no value in lowering the thermostat temperature at night or when the house is unoccupied. The opposite exists, when running a heat pump reducing the thermostat temp at night means the heat pump has to run harder and longer in the morning when you want the house back up to temperature. Its less efficient because the limiting factor is the volume of air that can be moved through the outdoor condenser to extract heat from. If the option to save energy is having the house uncomfortably cold for hours everyday, I consider that a failure of an HVAC design. This is, of course, just my opinion though.
I’m three states north of you and we’ve been running on our Cold Climate Heat pump for two winters now without any gas heating. This unit can still extract heat for the house when the outside temperature is -15°F, but its running pretty inefficiently.
Fetus@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
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Some people would pay slightly more for a house that already has solar installed, even if it’s a 5-7 year old system. So install it, then use it as a selling point down the track.
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Anecdotally, I’ve rented a house before that had solar installed. It was a factor in my choosing to rent that place. I don’t know how it is elsewhere in the world, but it’s pretty common in Australia to have to pay for your own electricity usage when renting a place. The solar panels lowered my bills considerably.
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Pad mount / ground mount systems are a thing, if you have enough space. That said, anything that can be installed, can be removed. Cost is a factor, though.
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I don’t see any breakthroughs coming any time soon. Gradual improvements through economies of scale will likely be it, along with any government incentives.
Canconda@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Certainly. I’m one of them.
I’m not saying solar isn’t viable. Just using my experience in mortgage financing to add more context to the conversation.
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DrunkenPirate@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
Balcony Solar Systems are the answer. You can literally plug it into your power plug. And unplug if you move somewhere. ROI is around 5 years. You can even use it for your camper if you buy a inverter-battery-combined system.
Drawback: It is reduced in Wattage (around 2kwp) and will reduce your bill just slightly. (Mine around 30€ each month). You likely won‘t install the panels on your roof and need a different place for it.
BlueOysterCultist@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I have solar already and can’t wait to buy some balcony solar panels
I’ve got a gazebo that’d be perfect to mount them on, and since my system has a house-backup battery I think it’d be a massive benefit for me (for the price)
My whole system is 3.2 kWh so a 1.2 kWh system would be a huge boost on the cheap
I think I could get at least 800w out of it with positioning so I could basically use my AC for a lot longer
DrunkenPirate@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
I recommend to buy a inverter-battery-combination which I have. It stores all the generated power (up to 4 panels possible with 2,4kwp max at all) while you can infuse 800 watt only maximum (Germany). The reduction is a safety for the power wires.
In my setup, I harvest 1,8kwh in my battery until afternoon while constantly providing 150w into my house grid. This often reaches until 4am morning. My base consumption with electronics standby is around 220w even in the deepest night. So, I don’t deliver the peaks but a steady base stream.
BlueOysterCultist@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I think it’d be redundant to get another battery when my whole house is already on a battery
I’d love more storage capacity (only at ~9.5 kWh currently) but I don’t think it’s worth getting additional capacity unless the price is reallllllly good
Canconda@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
So the challenge with those is that they’re not legal in many places. In Canada our electric code requires everything be connected to the breaker box so that electricians can work safely knowing there is no current in the building.
Strata’s also often require panels on railings be mounted flush, facing sideways instead of angled upwards.
On that note, given where most balcony solar would be installed; changing bylaws to allow balcony shades and air drying launder would arguably reduce our energy costs significantly more than what energy solar panels on railings could harvest.
DrunkenPirate@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
I don’t know your local laws and current setup, but Balcony Solar typically aren‘t standalone setups.
That means they need the frequency signal of your power current - 50hz in Germany. Without this they do not work. This is a safety measure to protect electricians while working.
So called Island Systems work without the frequency signal only. They provide power even in a black out situation. Balcony Solar does not in gerneral.
livligkinkajou@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
That’s indeed a good point, which is why we should keep the pressure on it. We can already see some campaigns forming around its legalization in some states, as seen here
There are some great resources there, so I’ll just copy some relevant information in case someone is interested:
It’s safe, it’s proven, and it works everywhere it’s allowed.
Canconda@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
The part your missing is why it’s illegal. Canadian electric code requires everything to go through the breaker box so that electricians can know there is no current in the building.
So even if the rules are changed this introduces installation costs that could be prohibitive.
Of which there are current zero devices registered for legal sale in Canada, because of the code issues prescribed above.
The problem is that plug in balcony solar is not considered safe according to our electrical code.