what is the best way to refuse to do this?
try to be as white as possible.
Comment on Don’t ever hand your phone to the cops
PrincessLeiasCat@sh.itjust.works 3 months ago
I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the best way to refuse to do this?
Say you’re in xyz situation and a cop demands your phone. You say no. They get angry, maybe make some threats (whether true or not), etc.
What is the best way to say no, you aren’t comfortable, come back with a warrant, etc, without pissing them off royally in such a way that things end up worse for you?
pyre@lemmy.world 3 months ago
dudeami0@lemmy.dudeami.win 3 months ago
[deleted]PrincessLeiasCat@sh.itjust.works 3 months ago
Never thought about it this way. Thanks!
helenslunch@feddit.nl 3 months ago
You can decline consent without resisting. Just say no. If it’s taken from you illegally then anything they find is inadmissible in court. If it’s taken from you legally, ain’t shit you can do anyway.
colonelp4nic@lemmy.world 3 months ago
I gotchu: m.youtube.com/watch?v=uqo5RYOp4nQ
NaibofTabr@infosec.pub 3 months ago
Q: Is it shut the fuck up Friday?
A: It’s always shut the fuck up Friday.
PrincessLeiasCat@sh.itjust.works 3 months ago
Oh man that was fucking hilarious! Thanks for making my night!
copd@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Mobile youtube links, gross
Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Disable biometrics and mention your password.
Android: look up “lockdown mode”
iOS: hold volume down + power, or press power 5 times fast.
wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Better: restart the phone. This puts it into the safest state it has, as it has not yet been initially unlocked and will require a non-bio auth. Stronger security, may/should hold if they attempt to attack/hack/compromise it, if it comes to that. Takes like 3 seconds. Do it, not the equal-time-worse-security version of just disabling bio.
Broken@lemmy.ml 3 months ago
Additionally, running GrapheneOS you can set up a duress pin to wipe the phone profiles if things were to escalate.
Being smart, set up the main profile a bit to look real, but have no actual information. That way it’s not obvious tha its been wiped.
Being cheeky, set the duress pin to be something simple like your birthday. So if you are detained/arrested and they try to get into your phone they are the ones to wipe it for you.
brbposting@sh.itjust.works 3 months ago
I imagine something like “I do not consent to a search nor seizure of any of my property. May I reach into my pocket so I may place my phone in plain view? If my property is going to be seized even against my will, I still want to ensure everyone’s safety.”
Then repeat the no consent line as you place your phone on your dashboard or whatever.
I imagine this means your lawyer will have body cam footage of the double nonconsent and the judge will see you were willing to comply even with potentially unlawful orders so he could sort it out in court instead of someone trying to fight it out on the street.
Kalysta@lemm.ee 3 months ago
Do you have a warrant? Then sorry officer I will not hand it over per my fifth amendment right.
From there just say you’re not saying anything else without a lawyer and then just keep demanding a lawyer.
Yes. The cop will get pissed off. But better him mad then you spending years trying to get out of a bogus charge because of some bullshit they found on your phone. Better to be annoying and demand to speak to a lawyer.
someguy3@lemmy.world 3 months ago
IANAL. This is what they want you to think, “just do this and it’ll be better for you”. It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog, being arrested while they conduct their investigation, but long term it’s the court that matters. And the court will throw out anything obtained illegally or the cops do illegally.
MrVilliam@lemmy.world 3 months ago
This. You have rights, but the police will lie, cheat, and steal their way into getting whatever they want, especially when what they want is for you to waive your rights.
When stopped by the police (in America), you say “I invoke my fifth amendment right to not answer questions and I don’t consent to any searches and seizures. Am I being detained or am I free to go?” That question starts a clock for what is a reasonable amount of time to detain you for their investigation because you’ve made it clear that you’d like to leave as soon as you’re legally allowed to.
As for any kind of force, just stay silent and unthreatening. They’re gonna do what they’re gonna do, and anything you do can be used as rationalization for escalation, which they really seem to fucking love. Be polite when you do choose to speak. Obey lawful commands and let them arrest you if that’s what they’re gonna do. You don’t fight armed thugs in the street, you fight them in court. File complaints and sue when they violate your rights and cause undue harm. Swinging at them or shouting in their face is how you get shot. Let their ego win the moment and then administratively destroy their career and life later on.
I’m also not a lawyer, but this is what any half decent lawyer would tell you to do. Just shut the fuck up (but invoke your right to shut the fuck up or your silence can actually be used against you) and be as passive as possible so your lawyer has a slam dunk case getting your charges dropped and/or suing the everloving fuck out of them, hopefully nullifying their qualified immunity in the process. Nothing you do or say to the police can help you, but it sure as shit will be used against you. Even things you think are innocuous can corroborate that you’re who they’re looking for, so just shut the fuck up.
dudeami0@lemmy.dudeami.win 3 months ago
To add to this spending some time in custody is inconvenient, but losing your rights being convicted of something you didn’t even do is more inconvenient. You think you know what to say until you say the wrong thing and start digging a hole.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 3 months ago
I hate advice like this because you just say empty terms like “obey lawful commands” after saying to not do anything. The question is how do we do this practically. Cops can lie. They can just say whatever is a lawful command. This is why this sort of advice needs to be more specific.
A good example, presenting your driver’s license for traffic stops. That’s usually a law, is it not? But you say to not consent to searches or seizures. The whole reason people ask for specific practical advice is because they don’t wanna get fucked over by the cops but also don’t wanna get fucked over for unintentionally pulling sovereign citizen like bullshit.
Adulated_Aspersion@lemmy.world 3 months ago
If you are operating a motor vehicle, you are required to hold a license to operate that vehicle. Ergo, if you are operating the vehicle, the police can ask for proof of your licensure to operate that vehicle, and you are reauired to prodice it. That is not covered under search and seizure.
MrVilliam@lemmy.world 3 months ago
The litmus test for whether something is a lawful order is to ask what will happen if you refuse. If the penalty for refusal is your arrest, say that you would prefer not to but will comply under threat of arrest. If it actually wasn’t a lawful order but you complied to avoid arrest, you’ll learn from a lawyer and get to sue over that.
As somebody else noted, driving is a privilege, not a right; if you’re pulled over for a traffic offense, you’re obligated to hand over your license and other related documents as requested depending on the state, probably registration and proof of insurance. If you don’t, then in many states it’s assumed that you were driving without being licensed to do so, and you’re probably going to jail.
On the flip side, if the cop asks to search your vehicle, you can tell him no. Don’t stop him from doing it anyway, just reiterate that you don’t consent to it and fight in court. There are some situations (like you’re under arrest and your car is being inventoried and impounded) in which they don’t need your consent to get in your car. Probable cause also gets them access to your car without your consent.
If you’re asked to do a field sobriety test, just refuse. Same for a breathalyzer. They’ll probably take you in and have you use a lab machine at the station, but that’s preferable to their bullshit games if you know you’re not doing anything wrong. Make quantitative science be the only evidence. Don’t drink and drive in the first place and you’ll be fine on that front.
rtxn@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Important addition: don’t just shut the fuck up.
First, in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense. Full name, date of birth, relevant cards/papers.
Second, if you need to reach for something, tell the officers so they don’t think you’re about to pull a weapon on them.
Third, explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights. Otherwise you might run into an “I want a lawyer, dawg” situation.
helenslunch@feddit.nl 3 months ago
There’s nowhere in the US that is true without reasonable, articulable suspicion (Terry v Ohio)
You really don’t need to do that unless you’ve already started answering questions, but it is good practice.
fadedmaster@sh.itjust.works 3 months ago
Keep in mind that the cops don’t have to provide you with their reasonable suspicion in order to demand ID. It’s not until court that they have to provide their reasonable suspicion. So they have plenty of time to come up with justification after the fact.
Also, on the Fifth Amendment I thought I had read somewhere about a case where a man simply remained silent and never once invoked his right and it didn’t end well for him. I cannot remember the details, but for some reason I thought that you still had to invoke the fifth even if you have not yet answered any questions. I’ll have to look back into this later and post back if I find the story.
helenslunch@feddit.nl 3 months ago
FYI thats illegal (US vs. Rodriguez)
Detained*
Dkarma@lemmy.world 3 months ago
They can’t detain you in the US for the purpose of conducting an investigation
helenslunch@feddit.nl 3 months ago
…what? That’s the only reason they detain you…
dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 3 months ago
They can in a few states. Delaware, for instance, where the law provides them two hours. This is of couse blatantly unconstitutional, but it’s still a state law.
PrincessLeiasCat@sh.itjust.works 3 months ago
Thank you!