Submitted 10 months ago by purple_mimosa@programming.dev to fediverse@lemmy.world
Title says it. Apparently lemmy devs are not concerned with such worldly matters as privacy, or respecting international privacy laws.
This is a lot like spray painting a message on a public wall in a neighborhood and then complaining because the community won’t paint over it when you realize how dumb it was.
You’re writing on a public space for free with no business behind it. You’re not the customer in this scenario.
That’s the beauty of the fediverse. There are no customers, there is no product, this is no business.
From their history, maybe their comment is this one they wanted deleted:
“software engineer” is such a stupid, shallow and arrogant description. I’m not an engineer and neither are you. I’m a software developer, developer for short. All these fake “engineers” and “scientists” tend to be arrogant stuck up pricks.
Idk OP, maybe step one is to be less of a jerk to people. If you do that you won’t have to worry as much about if things are deleted
It gets worse: everything you post to Lemmy is sent to multiple other servers automatically. Those servers may be in jurisdictions that have very different privacy laws than the server you post from, or that hosts the community you’re posting to. You have no legal agreement with those servers.
We’re not done though. The ActivityPub standard makes delete optional, and other servers could be running anything, not just Lemmy. Some of them are probably running somebody’s janky pet project that implements half of ActivityPub, poorly, on a jailbroken smart light bulb or something.
Lemmy should implement proper post deletion, possibly with a delay to allow moderators and admins to inspect deleted posts, but expect anything you share via ActivityPub to follow the once on the internet, always on the internet rule even more than in the past.
Delete buttons are just a placebo on the Internet anway. At least activitypub is honest about that.
Almost like the entire platform is based on the idea that one server/owner can’t be in charge of the data.
Don’t get me wrong, not picking a fight, just what op said is kind of obvious to me. You’re picking a social media that is democratized and is federated with everyone. The natural tradeoff is that your data is not housed on one server… Which obviously means it’s not private.
Idk, the fediverse is a great place, but I would never post anything here I ever wanted to be private. It’s not an accident, it’s literally by design.
Lemmy should implement proper post deletion, possibly with a delay to allow moderators and admins to inspect deleted posts, but expect anything you share via ActivityPub to follow the once on the internet, always on the internet rule even more than in the past.
How would this be done? Like you mentioned, anyone can run a modified instance of Lemmy that does not honor delete requests. I suppose you could put something that retrieves content from other servers as a pull operation instead of a push, but that’s going to break Lemmy’s ability to work with other ActivityPub applications (at the very least).
How would this be done? Like you mentioned, anyone can run a modified instance of Lemmy that does not honor delete requests.
Delete currently renders posts invisible to most users. Delete should actually delete the post from the server.
It’s impossible to ensure that the post is deleted from federated servers, web caches, clients that cache things, etc…
There are no guarantees either way. Even if the delete was somehow enforceable in software, it can be defeated with a simple server backup of any federated server.
I think federated servers should respect any delete request, but as users we need to expect that they wont.
This is incorrect.
I'm coding a Lemmy clone right now and have been testing this functionality out extensively. Deletes of posts and comments certainly federate.
I haven't tested what happens when the 'delete account' button is clicked... Mastodon solves this by sending a 'delete this user' Activity to every fediverse instance so it's doable.
Deletion of entities is optional in ActivityPub. That, by definition, makes known-removal of an account and all its posts in one go impossible, because a server can just ignore the deletion activity.
Yes, although the server will not ignore the deletion activity if that server is running Lemmy. We're talking about Lemmy here, not the fediverse as a whole. OP singled out Lemmy in the post title and said "lemmy devs are not concerned with..."
I'm sure there is more to be done in this area. It'd be great to know for sure which software treats deletion activities properly (I'm really unsure about Kbin, I think it does not) and which does not so instance admins can make informed decisions about who they federate with. Perhaps this information could be made available right within the UI that Lemmy admins use to control their instance, rather than an obscure documentation page somewhere...
seems weird this expectation of privacy on public sites built for public consumption of public content posted by people publicly.
i mean, i get wanting to control your data. the software i use allows for this ( the 'bins offer a user-level purge).
but privacy? seems weird
I mean, to have a Lemmy account you already decided to put your trust in total strangers with questionable security credentials.
but.. im not using lemmy
That argument doesn’t hold up when actual laws are being violated
Remind me again how things can be deleted from the internet?
Exactly, this is not specific to Lemmy as it applies to the whole internet.
Also, Lemmy is not a website : it would be somewhat like saying the language Python doesn’t obey GDPR !
/thread
Effect of ActivityPub, not Lemmy. All federating systems function similarly, because it's a feature of the protocol.
If instances want, they can ignore delete requests and your content stays in their cache forever (remember Pleroma nazis from couple of years ago?) - now, that is an instance problem that might be a GDPR issue, but good luck reporting it to anyone who cares. At best you can block and defederate, but that doesn't mean your posts are removed.
The fediverse has no privacy, it's "public Internet". Probably a good idea to treat it as such.
Thats why I stay as anonymous as possible.
always remember to throw in false information to throw others off your tail
completely unrelated, but I am a 45lb chihuahua with alopecia from Reno, Nevada.
That’s a pretty uncharitable interpretation, especially considering Lemmy is developed in and funded in part by the EU, and it’s a consequence of Federation (and one they’re working on remedying).
If you were worried about this sort of thing, perhaps you should have done your research about the platform before making an account so you could bitch about it here. You definitely don’t sound like the voice of reason when you couldn’t be arsed to figured this out before you made an account.
So you can’t make an account on this platform if you don’t agree with how it operates? By that logic no criticism of the platform by its users is possible, which is a great way to ensure it never gets better.
I mean, yes?
If you do not agree to the terms of a service, do not use the service. This is the case for essentially every system ever. You can go complain about it on Reddit or something if you like.
It took this person 20 days to post this. They didn’t create their account to post it, ergo, they figured it out after the fact.
If they really had an issue with stuff like this, why pray-tel weren’t they already doing their due diligence to ensure that the service they were signing up for didn’t violate the GDPR in ways they didn’t like? That seems like a gross oversight by someone clearly incensed by it.
(Also, it continues to be questionable whether it’s actually breaking GDPR rules, and even in that regard, it would be individual server admins responsible for enforcing GDPR compliance.)
I don’t agree with that reasoning. It’s entirely possible for someone to be personally accepting of Lemmy’s privacy issues, but make an intelligent, well informed, coherent critique of them.
You know, I think I’m going to make some software that just siphons every ActivityPub message (ignoring delete requests except to log them) and call it “GDPR THIS”. The amount of mysticism and confusion around two very basic concepts (ActivityPub works by copying profusely, and the GDPR has no weight outside of the EU) just leaves me baffled here.
This is definitely a con of Lemmy for me. I like to be more privacy focused but Lemmy gives you 0 privacy on whatever you do on the website. Anyone who wants more privacy on Lemmy is told you have no right to privacy, don’t expect any privacy, everything you do is public on the internet, etc. A massive boner killer for me. I think basic things like deleting your own post or comments should actually get removed from all servers, PMs should not be viewable by anyone except the recipients, and what you vote on or subscribe to should be private. Lemmy doesn’t sell your data but that’s because anyone can take the data for free. I thought this stuff was because Lemmy is still new and will get to it eventually but the push back seems to say this was a choice or is not broken. I ended up exploring different social media alternatives but I like the style of Lemmy better since it is more reddit-like with an active user base plus has different android clients. I don’t like kbin because it shows who upvoted or downvoted something to everyone - it’s not accountability when it erodes your privacy.
I used to comment on Lemmy more but then I ran into this problem when juggling multiple accounts, Liftoff sucks ass at letting you know which account you are logged into (I use Summit now and it is better at it) so I ended up getting my accounts’ wires crossed when I thought using the drop down on your accounts changed your account but no you have to go to manage instances to switch which was not intuitive. I ended up abandoning the accounts when I couldn’t figure out how to actually delete the post from the server.
While I didn’t find any factual issues in a quick skim of that article, I really don’t agree with its tone.
The Fediverse is radically public. That’s the nature of a protocol like ActivityPub, not a bug to be fixed. Using it for anything you’re not comfortable with being public forever is a mistake.
there’s a delete button
It's been a problem for a while. Considering major social media companies have already gotten massive fines from the EU for violating the GDPR, maybe the lemmy devs will put more effort in setting up a deletion system once the EU sends them a fine for breaking the law?
They can’t fine the “lemmy devs” (nor any other Fediverse devs). They can fine the operators of servers, and even there only those operating servers in the legal jurisdiction of the EU (which is checks notes the EU).
In this case, the "lemmy devs" and the operators of lemmy.ml are the same people and it's hosted within EU.
But - that's still a far cry from getting any kind of GDPR violation report going, much less getting it through the process to actual fines.
People like to bring up GDPR violations as a some kind of super-moderator tool, but it isn't that easy and it definitely isn't automated.
The EU doesn't have global jurisdiction, if an instance developer or admin has no EU presence then they could just ignore them.
Sure. Lemmy does have such a presence though.
Kilroy was here -U-
Mods and admins can remove posts and they don’t stay on the server. If you delete it yourself, then it stays.
Mods and admins can remove posts but they do stay only if they’re “removed”. But if they’re “purged”, then they’re deleted from the server.
I noticed a lot of clients like sync try and hide that fact. Poorly
GDPR is international now? Do I need to break out Nelson Muntz when some Euro type thinks European law is extraterritorial?
Don’t make me break out Nelson Muntz, please.
India? China? Japan? Vanuatu? …
Know what? I think I’ll just link instead of list because I can’t be arsed to type out all the names.
So it’s “international” as a technicality, but the context he was using it in implied he meant “universal”. And it barely qualifies even as international against the sheer weight of non-EU, non-US states.
It's not really as simple as that. Businesses in countries outside the EU have to follow the gdpr rules if they have or want customers from the EU because the EU can hit them financially in their EU operations.
Normal people offering a free service that are not based in the EU probably cannot be pursued at all. I doubt the EU considered people that might not be some business wanting to profit from EU citizens.
It’s mostly important for when you wanna do business in the European markets.
The alternative is to be blocked by most of Europe entirely. Happens usually to tabloid news sites as they are often in violation of anti misinformation and hate speech laws.
Lemmy however isn’t exactly for profit, so sees much less scrutiny. This is primarily for business after all.
“Lemmy” doesn’t do ANYTHING. Lemmy is server software. It has no agency whatsoever.
Individual Lemmy sites might be beholden to the GDPR (or not, if individually run). But any site hosted outside of the EU can wave its ass in the faces of EU officials trying to enforce the GDPR.
Oh no, that’s not even the half of it. The admin for your instance has access to literally anything on their server, including passwords afaik. If you want privacy, this ain’t it chief.
They have access to your password hash, effectively the “infrastructure” admin(s) as I’ll call it (not admins of the site - they need to have access to the actual system that is running the instance) have access to the same things that infrastructure admins of another site would have.
Ah, guess i misunderstood a comment on here.
Every website has access to the password you use on that website. ALWAYS use unique and randomly generated passwords for every service.
including passwords afaik
Nobody has access to passwords. They have access to password hashes, which are not the same thing. It would be the absolute most half baked of solutions to still be saving passwords in cleartext.
Which isn’t to say it doesn’t happen. I still occasionally get my password emailed back to me from small handbuilt websites. Which is part of why you should at the very least never use the same password twice.
Message your admin and ask for purging of that post/comment/user.
Then message every federated server’s admin.
Then message every federated server’s federated servers’ amins.
Then …
The number of surprised Pikachu faces people are displaying here is actually pretty funny now.
Technically, yes. If the law is of concern, if you’re an admin, purging it from your database will be the only extend your power can reach. If privacy is of concern, while purging will not federate, delete/edit will, so edit all comment into gibberish before deleting your own account, and then ask for it to be purged. If that’s unacceptable then best not use social media at all.
To my knowledge, these privacy laws prevent corporations from holding onto your data after you have requested to delete it. Lemmy is not a corporation, and there is no single entity that holds onto all of your data. That’s just a tradeoff of being decentralized.
I don’t know where this myth came from, but your dummy have a right to delete your posts under GDPR. In the other hand, if you post a creative work, such as a poem - then it should be covered by copyright. See, for example, law.stackexchange.com/…/does-a-user-have-the-righ…
If anything, you might have such rights under copyright law, if your posts cover the threshold for copyright. In that case, you can ask server admins to delete them, and they will have to comply. But the request has to reach them (if they’re defederated, the delete button won’t teach them, and you’ll have to contact them separately).
Well it is pretty much impossible to delete any thing on any federated service. It is technically just not possible without opening a whole other world of problems.
I always like to think of the fediverse in some way like emails. If you send an E-Mail, the moment it leaves your mail providers server it is pretty much impossible to stop.
Basically think before you post. The internet never forgets, the fediverse especially so.
Very bad indeed! This is the beginning of the end for lemmy.
Ps for those who don’t know, copying a deleted comment makes it appear in your pastbin
BloodSlut@lemmy.world 10 months ago
GDPR is for companies/corporations to “respect” user’s requests about their data.
Lemmy (ActivityPub, actually) isnt a company.
What you are saying is the equivalent of saying that the concept of writing is in direct violation of GDPR.
What you probably can do is request that an instance remove your content… And then do the same for every single other instance of any platform that implements ActivityPub (and not all of them will even have data coming from you) and is federated with your instance. And the only ones that would really need to comply are those that are based or operating in the EU.
This is still the internet, not some magical place.
Use some of the most basic fundamental internet safety rules and don’t provide potentially compromising information for no reason whatsoever. Especially since this isnt a corporation such as Facebook or Google who require you do so in order to use their service.
AlteredStateBlob@kbin.social 10 months ago
You are slightly wrong. The GDPR applies to everyone dealing with personal data on the regular, which you always have to assume with open text boxes. There have been plenty rulings already imposing fines on individual, private citizens for their misconduct in violation of the gdpr.
While Lemmy as a system might be exempt, anyone running Lemmy for sure isn't, as long as it regularly processes data of EU citizens, which it does.
As for the devs, the gdpr does require privacy by design. One could argue the Devs themselves aren't running it at all, so their software doesn't have to adhere to it, but individual instance hosts could still be hit with fines for running it as is.
BloodSlut@lemmy.world 10 months ago
thank you for the correction
skullgiver@popplesburger.hilciferous.nl 10 months ago
ttmrichter@lemmy.world 10 months ago
“It’s on the server admin to do the literally impossible.”
otter@lemmy.ca 10 months ago
There are some great replies here
I think it’s also worth putting in extra effort to educate users so they know early and not when they’re expecting otherwise. The system has a benefit, and it’ll be smoother if users aren’t surprised
Data deletion and public vote records are the two big things that come to mind