Tech company is doing an evil practice
Government wags finger and collects a 0.02% net profit fine
Spends the money on anti-homeless grenades.
New York sues Valve for enabling "illegal gambling" with loot boxes
Submitted 18 hours ago by RegularJoe@lemmy.world to games@lemmy.world
Comments
CluckN@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
purplerabbit@piefed.blahaj.zone 18 hours ago
Hope Valve loses and something changes. Valve has been getting away with this bullshit for way too long because people like them and therefore give them a pass on all of their shitty behaviour.
Lfrith@lemmy.ca 17 hours ago
It isn’t always that simple. It could lead to age verification requirements which might be the goal as opposed to banning loot boxes. Then what has people upset about discord wanting face scans or IDs could end up becoming a legal requirement for online gaming accounts that want to play games rated T and higher.
And this age verification thing has been getting pushed throughout the world with attempts at chat control in the EU and what’s already happened in the UK.
acosmichippo@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
implement age verification on games with loot boxes. watch sales crash. stop implementing loot box funded games.
purplerabbit@piefed.blahaj.zone 16 hours ago
Yeah, I didn’t think about that. That is kind of a nightmare scenario. I still stand by what I said. Now the question is, do I trust legislation to make a good decision that doesn’t fuck over everyone in the end? And if so, do I trust a multi-billion dollar company to not do some horrendous malicious compliance?
… and I’m not going to answer these questions. :|
imetators@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 hours ago
I wonder if they ask everyone for ID. My account is old enough to drink.
tidderuuf@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
What shitty behavior? A new version of Counter Strike? Literally having a platform that sells games and isn’t beholden to shareholders? A platform that isn’t selling our data or purposely made to game more money out of people?
You click buy, that’s on you. Have an addiction then go get some fucking help and stop blaming everyone else.
RightHandOfIkaros@lemmy.world 16 hours ago
So are they going to do the same thing against EA, ActiBlizz, Epic Games, etc etc? Or is this just “Valve has the most money and we want money and dont actually care about this issue” yet again?
Goodeye8@piefed.social 10 hours ago
There’s a fundamental difference between what Valve does and what other companies are doing. In most games the things you get from a lootbox have no monetary value. You can’t sell those skins to make money. You could get around it by selling the whole account but that is pretty much universally against the TOS so companies get a free pass when that happens.
But even if it did have some monetary value as long as it’s a value set by the community and never acknowledged by the company the company gets a free pass even if they unofficially acknowledge the value (see how WOTC manipulates the secondary market of MTG cards).
And this is where Valve is different from the others. Valve acknowledge the monetary value of an item, because the trades happen on their platform and Valve takes a cut from all the trades. No other lootbox or lootbox-esque game does this.
As for why it’s a lawsuit now, I’m guessing it’s related to what was said in the article. I’m guessing previously Valve could hide behind the fact that the outcome of the trades is essentially Steam credit, which technically has no monetary value because it can’t be cashed out, at least not through Valve. But supposedly now with the Steam deck, in a roundabout way, it is possible to cash out through Valve.
Valve lootboxes have always been the closest iteration to gambling and Valve has been hiding behind technicalities for a decade to keep their gambling ecosystem going. Just because Valve does a lot of good shit doesn’t mean we should be defending their bad shit when it’s obviously bad.
Naia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 hours ago
None of this is exclusive to Valve. Yeah, people can technically buy hardware and sell it, but they can also gift games or whatever and people were already using third party websites to sell their items for cash.
And MMOs with random drops have historically always had an RMT market that is against the TOS where people sell in game currency or items for real currency.
I’m not saying that valve should be let off the hook when it comes to loot boxes, but this lawsuit kind of stinks because it is all over the place and again, valve isn’t the worst example of what they describe.
The fact that it’s framed as “protecting children” and claims that valve is intentionally targeting children despite the games in question being rated M and old enough that I seriously doubt there are that many minors playing is putting a ton of red flags up for me. They also add the 90s era “violent video game” rhetoric that was always nonsense.
The conspiracy part of me thinks this is going to eventually lead to more age verification BS and they are targeting valve because it is the only company that is complying in a way that still protects user privacy.
SupraMario@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
This isn’t true at all. A lot of games now allow you to sell the boxes on their platform.
Casterial@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
It seems as if someone has been lobbying against Valve recently… Probably Epic for failing to compete.
tidderuuf@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
Bingo. It’s also widely known across the industry that Valve has had these crates and keys for nearly a decade. No lawsuit.
It’s all about the Benjamins.
Xorg_Broke_Again@sh.itjust.works 11 hours ago
So they should be left alone with their online gambling business because they’ve been doing it for a long time and also there are other companies doing it too? Valve glazing is really out of control.
imetators@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 hours ago
While I certainly agree with the “competition fails at being a competitor and sues instead”, it is also false to say that because of Valve having lootboxes for over a decade, we should let it be.
Well, if Valve loses the case and this would force EA, Epic and all other bunch of shitty companies that utilize FOMO and gambling mechanics to stop doing so - I see it as a enormous W.
Fokeu@lemmy.zip 9 hours ago
I can’t believe that I side with a corporation but that just shows how immensely idiotic this is. We have so many straight up evil companies but they’d rather pick up on the one which is somewhat beneficial to our freedom and digital rights. Until we get a good competitor I’ll stand with steam even if though hate corporations. Lesser evil
zipfile@lemmy.ml 6 hours ago
What’s wrong with making valve stop an actually bad thing they do?
This is how we got refunds lol
Electric_Druid@lemmy.world 5 hours ago
So your argument is that they’re mostly good so you’ll look the other way here?
Naia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 hours ago
Look, I don’t have any love for loot boxes in general, at least when it’s real money. But there are far more egregious examples that would work just as well if not better for going after the practice of loot boxes than what steam does.
There’s a reason they are singling out steam, and they signal why in the statement, saying this “teaches kids to gamble and makes them violent”, repeating 90s BS about “violent video games”, when the games in question are rated M, meaning if a child is playing it then that is 100% on the parents… and still not illegal anyway.
They are most likely singling out valve because they refuse to play ball with the privacy violating age checks. Valve did the bare minimum they had to: basically clearing anyone with a credit card registered as being over 18.
Valve is also not a publicly traded company and is very customer focused, even with the loot box thing.
FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
100%
SCmSTR@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 hours ago
This is a mess. I’ve rewritten this a bit of this and added sections and removed sections. The gist of what I think is just that I have a lot of mixed feelings about all of this, and it’s a very VERY complex topic that I just want to be done with…
In addition to asking Valve to modify or eliminate its loot box system, the New York suit asks for Valve to make “full restitution to consumers” for the disgorgement of “all monies” received from its gambling system, and for fines of “three times the amount of its gain.” Ars Technica has reached out to Valve for comment.
Lol.
Okay, so,
- Loot boxes, like other forms of gambling, can lead to addiction and result in real harm. But Valve’s loot boxes are particularly pernicious because they are popular among children and adolescents, who are lured into opening loot boxes by the prospect of winning expensive virtual items that convey status in the gaming world. Research has shown that children who are introduced to gambling are at a significantly higher risk of developing gambling addictions later in life.
I read the “nature of the lawsuit” part of the lawsuit, as I think it’s enough to understand the gist of what’s going on. The lawsuit is like 50 pages long and I’m not a lawyer, I’m just laying in bed with my eyelids getting heavy.
Basically, 1-11, and 13 are entirely THIS IS GAMBLING with sprinkles of GAMBLING IS BAD. Like, yeah, no fucking duh. 14 states:
- As described further below, Valve’s actions violate Article I, Section 9 of the New York Constitution, and Sections 220.05 and 220.10 of New York’s Penal Law.
Looks like article I section 9 is ‘gambling is illegal in ny’. It doesn’t immediately say what 220.05/10 are, but going off the really big focus on THIS IS GAMBLING AND GAMBLING IS ILLEGAL trend, I can guess what it says.
So, why the fuck is ny going after valve NOW? Why not… I dunno, a decade ago? This is so weird! And why not sue ALL the companies that have been doing it for many decades now? Niantic, Nintendo, Microsoft, Sony, the hoards of gacha games and trading card games? It can’t really be that the valve definition really just hit some specific conditions, like being otherwise useless skins, most crate opens are worth basically nothing, etc. can it?
And then mixed in is a pretty heavy amount of protect the children. Which… Yes, virtue signal, but yes. Valve shouldn’t allow children to be gambling. But also, I think this is a case of a mean-well situation that developed in the wrong way. Valve needs to check themselves and fix this, 100%.
If you don’t know, the skins thing developed over probably more than a decade. It was a way for modders and skinners to legitimately make money, rather than be barred by copyright. Valve would share in the profit, everybody would see your custom skins rather than just you, it would give everyone a sense of uniqueness, and wouldn’t unbalance the game because it was just cosmetics. Then rarity and logistics, and then it spiraled out of control. It was never meant to be “hey let’s give kids gambling addiction and steal their money”, Valve is one of the very few companies that that ISN’T their goal, as is very evidenced by anybody who knows anything about them. They aren’t EA. It’s unfortunate that it ended up this way, with other companies only seeing the dollar signs, with valve landing on it where they have, with the building hate for them.
I had a bunch of other stuff written out, mostly thoughts as I went. I have many thoughts on this. I think Valve should stop lootboxes and set an example as a leader of the industry.
I’m sad to see Valve get kicked so much, and would be devastated to see Steam and Valve fall (muh library!). They generally do try to serve consumers well, it’s very clear. They single handedly saved pc gaming by offering a quality service better than piracy. Always on DRM was the trade. I hope they can innovate and do better without further dark patterns. Maybe this lawsuit is just what they need to get their shit together. Maybe it’ll destroy them and a bunch of actually shitty companies will continue to be the shittiest companies to ever grace the earth in Valve’s place. I have a very bad feeling about this.
Valve, for all our sakes, do better, plz fix. Before this gets worse.
LwL@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
There is one core difference to most other lootboxes, and it’s that the skins you get from them have a tangible real world value. It is actually, in every way, resemblant of a slot machine. Put in money, receive an amount of money that is less than what you put in on average (though I guess it’s never 0).
I’d have far more support for this if we didn’t have something matching this entirely for decades, completely legal for kids, with the only difference being that you get a physical item instead of something digital. Of course, I’m referring to trading cards. By all means regulate both, but regulating the digital version while not touching the physical one is insane.
Naia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 hours ago
Assuming that they are seems like a leap, but since we don’t really know exactly what consciousness is,
Which is no different that trading card games and also not valve’s fault.
I have no love for loot boxes, at least when real money is used to get them, but from what I’ve seen across the board Valve is far from the worst with them. Valve also doesn’t allow you to sell the skins you get for real money, only steam credit. That is still real-world value, but they are also not the only company that does that.
Outside of real-world money for loot boxes, most of the issues with the skin market are not anything Valve did. It was third party sites popping up that allowed people to sell their skins for cash.
Valve have even made changes to their side that crashed the market and caused a ton of “value” to disappear.
The fact is that this lawsuit is pretty obviously not actually about gambling. If it was there are far worse companies they could go after.
And I do want something to be done about them across the board, but this is not going to do that.
SCmSTR@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 hours ago
The implications and nuances of this lawsuit are so incredibly deep and ripple so far, that anybody on here or anywhere else that says they strongly feel one way or the other is either completely full of shit, has an ulterior motive, or has a personal stake somehow.
This lawsuit, when deeply thought about, is the opposite of simple. The more you know, the messier it gets.
Katana314@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
Trading cards are arguably a problem too, but one that becomes much less prevalent due to their comparative inconvenience. The internet can gamify immediacy around them, and the cards of that store will never run out of stock.
zipfile@lemmy.ml 6 hours ago
Why now? Because they just got a new mayor and administration that cares
thessnake03@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
New York state is the entity that has filed suit
deczzz@lemmy.dbzer0.com 26 minutes ago
I don’t care at all. When I play cs2, I get a new case and shit skin every week. I sell the case for a few euro cents and trade up the shit skins to rarer skins that I sell. I make money playing cs2.
If people are stupid enough to get caught up in gambling, it’s on them.
amzd@lemmy.world 10 minutes ago
Sir, valve is letting 14 year olds develop life altering gambling addictions without any limits
TotalCourage007@lemmy.world 13 minutes ago
I care when shitty influencers get their bag by scamming children out of money. It shouldn’t JUST be valve involved in this BS lawsuit though.