What does the process of disobeying illegal military orders look like? [US]

Submitted ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Hazmatastic@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨nostupidquestions@lemmy.world⁩

Could someone who has served or something please enlighten me?Just scratching my head wondering what about that process is keeping people from actually doing it. Beyond just saying “No,” is there grievance paperwork? A petition? Witness statements? Is it as simple as having the balls to tell your CO no to their face and being open to consequences?

It seems like at very least there’s a culture of “the people above me probably know better” and/or “don’t be the squeaky wheel” but it doesn’t seem to me that that should be enough for the level of inaction we seem to be seeing here. What gives?

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SomeAmateur@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
You get orders to do a thing (“blow up that orphanage soldier!”)

You ask for clarification (“that looks like a civilian target, do you mean the outpost next to it?”)

Get claification that confirms unlawful order (“No the orphanage full of kids, level it.”)

You are OBLIGATED BY YOUR DUTY TO INTERNATIONAL LAWS OF WAR to reject the order (“Negative, I cannot do that”) and to report others who obey unlawful orders, outside of your chain of command if neccesary (“Fine, I’ll get someone else to destroy it, you’re finished.”)

Then you’ll likely be pulled from your unit, and face court matial where the situation will be investigated like most other court cases. (“There was an outpost nearby but the orphanage was not a legal target”)

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- tyrant@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Look at what happened to Mark Kelly for simply suggesting people should disobey illegal orders
  
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  - CaptR@lemmy.wtf ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    This man is my hero though
    
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neidu3@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I read up on this recently, and my understanding is that the solider is supposed to presume the order is legal and carry it out(otherwise, a CO should not have given it in the first place). However, they can refuse, but will face consequences in that they better have a buttload of proof.

In effect, they will get in trouble for disobeying an order, but if it is proven that the order was demonstrably illegal to begin with, then they will probably be in the clear.

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- Einskjaldi@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  If your boss tells you to wash their personal car, thats an illegal order and you dont do it.
  
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db2@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
The punishment will happen either way. If the bad guys win the punishment won’t stop. This whole thing of not obeying illegal orders relies on enough people to not obey that it can’t be ignored, and even then they can apparently 1984 it away anyway.

It’s incredibly childish.

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tux7350@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Its not as cut and dry as everyone here is making it out to be. This is an organization of people, rules are bent and broken CONSTANTLY.

Each branch has a form of peer-mentoring. In some form or another you’re graded on your ability to do your job and those grades get looked at for your promotion.

It starts off as a negative counseling. Sometimes written, most times just verbal. These are the “oh man I forgot to do this duty at the end of the day” type offenses. Most than likely someone is just gonna tell you to pull you’re head out of your ass and fix it.

Get enough of these and eventually you will get whats called a “non-judical punishment”. These are punishments handed out by commanding officers. See “UCMJ Article 15”. These are offenses under the rest of the UCMJ. Some things like adultery are still chargeable offenses. If they cant find something to charge you with “UCMJ Article 134” is a general offense. Basically “hey we didnt like what you did, its not illegal, but were gonna charge you anyway”

Think of NJPs as a misdemeanor, smaller but still serious infraction. When you leave the military, nobody will know that you got charged with something. But these do come with punishments. You basically get “grounded” cant leave your barracks room / get put on restriction. Also loss of pay.

Decide to commit a serous crime defined in the UCMJ? Well thats what a court-martial is. That is equivalent to a felony and will show up on any criminal background check. These often include jail time and reductions in rank.

Its all incredibly suggestive and depends on all the parties involved.

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I_Fart_Glitter@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
girightshotline.org

This is the number to call if you are given an unlawful and or immoral order.

The way military members view their role in war is a constantly evolving story. Often during their military careers, people start to question or doubt the missions they once signed on to carry out. Some feel asked to carry out orders they never imagined. As citizens themselves, some military members want to use their free speech rights to speak out against injustices they see. Some even find themselves in situations where their conscience won’t allow them to carry out orders they believe to be immoral. And in the rigid military discipline system, people are often curious about their rights in these situations and nervous about possible consequences for acting on their inclinations. There is a long, powerful legacy of military personnel taking courageous action to ensure public visibility and/or accountability for unlawful, unethical and unjust situations carried out by the US military.

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IWW4@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
What happens is the person that disobeys orders spends years dealing with all types of non judicial and judicial punishment, then they probably get vilified by various right wing pundits and having their lives dismantled and all types of fucked up, decades later some court will exonerate them and by that time, no one will remember the dudes name and or will only remember that they are a bad guy.

It isnt a culture of the people above me know better. It is a legal system taht dictates that.

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- Dozzi92@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  But Lemmy told me it’s a simple thing to do.
  
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  - IWW4@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yeah… all you need to solve a legal issue in movies is a montage. Lemmy/reddit thinks the same thing.
    
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LemmyKnowsBest@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Dishonorable discharge, no veterans benefits, and your résumé will be married & blacklisted and look very bad to any future employment prospects in the civilian sector, similar to how ex-felons have difficulty finding jobs when they get out of prison.

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Bongles@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
If you have about 20 minutes – youtube.com/watch?v=TwPLqGkYnBA

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HubertManne@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Im not sure because I have never been in the military. This is because I understood that signing up for it would mean killing folks if told to do so. I honestly feel that many people just don’t really let that sink in before they sign up. Its heavy. Whatever the process is im sure it starts with courage. I think about bradley manning and edward snowden level of courage.

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