I am abandoning Arc Raiders because Embark is stealing voices through AI

Submitted ⁨⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Chef6652@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨games@lemmy.world⁩

cross-posted from: lemmy.world/post/40224994

I just found out that Embark used genAI to replace recalling it’s voice actors. And I am devastated. It was my GOTY and now I’m boycotting it. To the point that I decided to be vocal about it.

I don’t want any AI (not talking about machine learning for the way the Arcs move, I’m talking about the voice actors being replaced) in the work of art that I think are the video games I play.

To game developers: Stop using AI in your video games!

Je viens de découvrir que Embark a utilisé de l’IA générative pour remplacer ses acteurs. Et franchement je suis tellement déçu. C’était clairement mon GOTY, et maintenant je me retrouve à boycotter tout ça, au point de carrément en faire des posts pour toucher le plus de monde possible.

Je ne veux aucune IA (et attention, je ne parle pas du machine learning utilisé pour les déplacements des Arcs) dans les oeuvres d’art que je consomme.

Aux développeurs: Arrêtez d’utiliser de l’IA dans les jeux vidéos !

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Comments

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kate@lemmy.uhhoh.com ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Stealing? They paid the voice actors to train the model, everyone consented. What do you think stealing is?

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- Chef6652@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Stealing might be a strong word, I agree. But because of this policy, Embark won’t need another recording session out of these actors. Designing the project to never pay the actors that could have worked with them again.
  
  To back this term (“stealing”). I consider that the genAI technology as a whole has been built on the stolen work of the whole world. ChatGPT has been built upon thousands of Github projects without their consent, I suppose Sora, DALL-E, Stable Diffusion, etc have been made in the same way. Training data has been stolen.
  
  Even though it’s a bit far-stretched, using this kind of technology to remove any future human collaboration is stealing to me.
  
  Stealing (copying) their voice (in the Little Mermaid way)
  
  Stealing their money (make profit with their unique trait in the future)
  
  Stealing the work of thousand if not million of people around the world through the genAI technology
  
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  - kate@lemmy.uhhoh.com ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    It’s not just a “strong word”, it’s incorrect. At most, these platforms are built on copyright infringement, which is not theft. And in this case, it’s not even copyright infringement since they hired a voice actor
    
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  - Goun@lemmy.ml ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    I’d say it’s piracy. The same thing some people went to prison for back in the days when dowloading music from p2p.
    
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realitaetsverlust@piefed.zip ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
From https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/arc-raiders-use-of-ai-highlights-the-tension-and-confusion-over-where-machine-learning-ends-and-generative-ai-begins/

Watkins, speaking to PCGamesN, elaborated that the text-to-speech always starts with a voice actor: “It’s part of their contract that we use it [AI] for this purpose, and that allows us to do things like our ping system, where it’s capable of saying every single item name, every single location name, and compass directions. That’s how we can get that without needing to have someone come in every time we create a new item for the game.”

So no, they are not “stealing” voices. Their contracts explicity states that they are training the model. So they are getting paid, which in conclusion rules out “stealing”.

Also, from your video:

But to my understanding

Rarely ever good if a sentence starts with “To my understanding”

the AI tools Embark uses to then synthesize the rest of the performance come from models that are trained on millions of other voice actors that have been stolen from in the way that all generative AI models steal from artists.

No, that’s the whole point of models that are trained on a single voice - you do NOT use other voice actors because that would completely muddy the voice. The models are trained on a singular voice to mimic that person perfectly. Using other voices is like asking someone to cook a potato soup for you and then you toss in tomato and paprika.

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- Chef6652@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Thank you for the sourced answer.
  
  First of all, I’m not the author of the video. I’m only a concerned customer/fan.
  
  Secondly, I am already boycotting Windows for those kind of reason. And I have been a Linux user for the better part of the last 10 years. You are right, we should fight this kind of stance. But this is a different beast imho.
  
  Now to answer: I will copy/paste most of my answer to kate above.
  
  Stealing might be a strong word, I agree. But because of this policy, Embark won’t need another recording session out of these actors. Designing the project to never pay the actors that could have worked with them again.
  
  I find this really cynical. Because:
  
  Embark has made millions, if not more on this game. Don’t tell me they HAD to use genAI instead of paying those voice actors for reshoot to begin with.
  
  To back this term (“stealing”). I consider that the genAI technology as a whole has been built on the stolen work of the whole world. ChatGPT has been built upon thousands of Github projects without their consent, I suppose Sora, DALL-E, Stable Diffusion, etc have been made in the same way. Training data has been stolen.
  
  Even though it’s a bit far-stretched, using this kind of technology to remove any future human collaboration is stealing to me.
  
  Stealing (copying) their voice (in the Little Mermaid way)
  
  Stealing their money (make profit with their unique trait in the future)
  
  Stealing the work of thousand if not million of people around the world through the genAI technology
  
  I personally do understand how genAI work. But thank you for clarifying what is usually a black box for most people. Let me phrase in detail what my understanding is. And feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
  
  What Embark did is to train a specific model on a specific voice. I agree. But the base of this model is to be capable of understanding how any voice works in order to copy how a specific voice work. In other words. This means that the technology/model has first been built using thousands of recordings to “understand” how human voice works. And then there has been a last layer to copy a specific voice. I am simplifying of course. But I want to express how much I am disagreeing with the “they only used one specific voice”. Technology isn’t magic, we as a society don’t understand how to make a program that can copy a single voice to make it say anything perfectly. We can use an amalgam of thousands of them to build a neural network (what some call AI) to statistically mimic what a human voice is. And then feed it a single voice to mimic.
  
  Sorry for the long response.
  
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  - realitaetsverlust@piefed.zip ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    
    Don’t tell me they HAD to use genAI instead of paying those voice actors for reshoot to begin with.
    
    The didn’t have to, but it certainly makes it easier. And I find it silly to not use a technology that makes something easier if you have it available. That’s like a farmer plowing his field by hand instead of using a tractor.
    
    But the base of this model is to be capable of understanding how any voice works in order to copy how a specific voice work.
    
    First of all, we had Text-To-Speech way before any kind of generative AI. In germany, we had speech synthesized announcements on railway stations for like 15 years at least. Like this here: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AuIkJ_UGltI. We also had vocaloids for decades now. So it’s wrong to assume we had no idea how voices work before AI.
    
    Second, I get your stance on “I’m not using AI because somewhere up the chain it was developed by morally ambiguous ways”, but I don’t think that makes anything better. You should rate the current use-case, not something that happened earlier in the production chain. AI in itself is not bad. If used properly, it’s an incredibly helpful tool. There’s other and much better hills to die on imo.
    
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Alchalide@lemmy.world ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
But its in agreement with the voice actors. I don’t get the big deal. I’m not pro AI but why would you abandon a game you enjoy for that reason? Praise them for making an Unreal engine game that looks and runs great.

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- HailSeitan@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Because desperate voice actors famously have so much leverage in contract negotiations, right? Why do you think Hollywood actors and writers unions went on strike in 2023?
  
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- FatVegan@leminal.space ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  While i think it sucks, and the only reason they take this weird approach is that the embark guy is a turbo AI bro. What i don’t understand why they even bother, since arc raiders has only like 10 voice lines
  
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- Chef6652@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  I agree, this game has an awesome tech team making a clear counter-argument to UE5 haters (I hate UE5, they used very well imho). The graphism are cool and the art is really a work of art! I love the world design, lore, color grading, design-language, weapon design, etc.
  
  The voice acting got through what I consider my keen 6th sense of AI-detection (which scares me tbh). But this is something that I cannot let go, I don’t want to. Even though everything else is (for a multiplayer game) top-notch imo.
  
  What’s the boundary if we let them do this to one aspect of the game then? What amount of AI slop are we going to accept in the future if we allow corporations to AI-creep into everything?
  
  I want to vote with my wallet and with my voice to support what I think isn’t the right direction.
  
  Even though the voice actors signed the contract: I, as a customer/fan, don’t want workers signing off their ability to work more. These voice actors won’t ever work again with Embark now, Embark don’t need another recording session from them. Ok, actors waved that opportunity away willingly. But I don’t want the whole industry to become like this.
  
  It’s not because the genAI trend isn’t going away that we aren’t allowed to adapt to it. My adaptation is to fight for an AI-free label.
  
  PS: On another front, Embark has made millions, if not more on this game. Don’t tell me they HAD to use genAI instead of paying those voice actors for reshoot to begin with.
  
  I love the dev behind ARC Raiders. I hate the management team that forced AI into the project (I can’t prove this claim, call that a hunch)
  
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  - Alchalide@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    The reason I’ve heard they are doing it so they can pump out dialoge faster and they don’t have to let the voice actors come in for every line whenever they add a new map with new way points for example.
    
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  - _cryptagion@anarchist.nexus ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    
    But this is something that I cannot let go, I don’t want to.
    
    that’s too bad, considering most people are looking at this with a rational mind and don’t agree with you, and you have no ability to change it by yourself.
    
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wizblizz@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Really appreciate you bringing awareness and expressing concern on this, as it has the potential to abuse artists. Folks seem quick to handwave it away instead of taking the measured, thoughtful approach it deserves. Artists need to be protected first and foremost.

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CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
I installed Arc Raiders from my family sharing group, fired it up then closed it and uninstalled it as soon as it says I need to create YET ANOTHER account just to play this game.

I’m done creating an account for every single game.

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- bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Yep. I wish others were brave enough to actually make a change. Accounts are purely there to steal data and further enrich thieves.
  
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_cryptagion@anarchist.nexus ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
they aren’t “stealing” actors, you twit. the voice actors were hired to make the “AI” voices. in reality it’s not even AI, it’s a text-to-speech system and voice modulator, for those who want to use the raider voice for VOIP because they don’t want people hearing their voice.

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- Chef6652@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  First, please stay civil. I didn’t insult you. Don’t insult me.
  
  Secondly I mark the difference between the accessibility feature of voice changer and the voice lines that could have been 100% recorded by a professional voice actor to begin with.
  
  Because in the second case, this is just cost-cutting in order to maximise profit on the back of voice actors imho.
  
  Marketing this as “text-to-speech” is oversimplyfying at best, dishonest at worst. People need to work, we can’t blame the voice actors. But in the end they still are working against themselves/their peers by allowing corporations/studios to copy their unique features to prevent working with them in the future.
  
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  - _cryptagion@anarchist.nexus ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    I’m glad we’ll always have liberals to tell us what we should be outraged about. instead of asking those VA whether or not they’re offended by what they agreed to, you’ve stolen their voice and declared yourself the arbiter of what they should feel. you’ve decided your opinion is more important than theirs. what sort of narcissistic outrage farming junkie does that? where do you get off, stealing the voice from others who can speak for themselves?
    
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pressedhams@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
I mean, it’s a garbage game so, any reason to not play it I guess.

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