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• kate@lemmy.uhhoh.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Stealing? They paid the voice actors to train the model, everyone consented. What do you think stealing is?

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  • ZoteTheMighty@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The job offer would read “Let us use your voice to train an AI to replace you, and if you say no, we’ll hire someone else who will.” Most actors are highly replaceable, so they have very little bargaining power. This is why actors have unions and why they’ve been fighting AI hard.

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    • WindyRebel@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I’m admittedly ignorant of all of this, but I’ll post my thoughts anyway:

      If the AI is trained on their voice and that AI is available to other studios, the one time payment for that actor’s work is a very very shit deal. They’re out of a job in multiple places or for multiple works now since it can be reused for many things.

      I doubt that the contract says it’s only used for that one singular project. Companies are sneaky. However, I have not read said contracts so it’s a magical guess on my part.

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  • Chef6652@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Stealing might be a strong word, I agree. But because of this policy, Embark won’t need another recording session out of these actors. Designing the project to never pay the actors that could have worked with them again.

    To back this term (“stealing”). I consider that the genAI technology as a whole has been built on the stolen work of the whole world. ChatGPT has been built upon thousands of Github projects without their consent, I suppose Sora, DALL-E, Stable Diffusion, etc have been made in the same way. Training data has been stolen.

    Even though it’s a bit far-stretched, using this kind of technology to remove any future human collaboration is stealing to me.

    • Stealing (copying) their voice (in the Little Mermaid way)
    • Stealing their money (make profit with their unique trait in the future)
    • Stealing the work of thousand if not million of people around the world through the genAI technology

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    • kate@lemmy.uhhoh.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It’s not just a “strong word”, it’s incorrect. At most, these platforms are built on copyright infringement, which is not theft. And in this case, it’s not even copyright infringement since they hired a voice actor

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    • Goun@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I’d say it’s piracy. The same thing some people went to prison for back in the days when dowloading music from p2p.

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• realitaetsverlust@piefed.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  From https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/arc-raiders-use-of-ai-highlights-the-tension-and-confusion-over-where-machine-learning-ends-and-generative-ai-begins/

  Watkins, speaking to PCGamesN, elaborated that the text-to-speech always starts with a voice actor: “It’s part of their contract that we use it [AI] for this purpose, and that allows us to do things like our ping system, where it’s capable of saying every single item name, every single location name, and compass directions. That’s how we can get that without needing to have someone come in every time we create a new item for the game.”

  So no, they are not “stealing” voices. Their contracts explicity states that they are training the model. So they are getting paid, which in conclusion rules out “stealing”.

  Also, from your video:

  But to my understanding

  Rarely ever good if a sentence starts with “To my understanding”

  the AI tools Embark uses to then synthesize the rest of the performance come from models that are trained on millions of other voice actors that have been stolen from in the way that all generative AI models steal from artists.

  No, that’s the whole point of models that are trained on a single voice - you do NOT use other voice actors because that would completely muddy the voice. The models are trained on a singular voice to mimic that person perfectly. Using other voices is like asking someone to cook a potato soup for you and then you toss in tomato and paprika.

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  • Chef6652@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Thank you for the sourced answer.

    First of all, I’m not the author of the video. I’m only a concerned customer/fan.

    Secondly, I am already boycotting Windows for those kind of reason. And I have been a Linux user for the better part of the last 10 years. You are right, we should fight this kind of stance. But this is a different beast imho.

    Now to answer: I will copy/paste most of my answer to kate above.

    Stealing might be a strong word, I agree. But because of this policy, Embark won’t need another recording session out of these actors. Designing the project to never pay the actors that could have worked with them again.

    I find this really cynical. Because:

    Embark has made millions, if not more on this game. Don’t tell me they HAD to use genAI instead of paying those voice actors for reshoot to begin with.

    To back this term (“stealing”). I consider that the genAI technology as a whole has been built on the stolen work of the whole world. ChatGPT has been built upon thousands of Github projects without their consent, I suppose Sora, DALL-E, Stable Diffusion, etc have been made in the same way. Training data has been stolen.

    Even though it’s a bit far-stretched, using this kind of technology to remove any future human collaboration is stealing to me.

    • Stealing (copying) their voice (in the Little Mermaid way)
    • Stealing their money (make profit with their unique trait in the future)
    • Stealing the work of thousand if not million of people around the world through the genAI technology

    I personally do understand how genAI work. But thank you for clarifying what is usually a black box for most people. Let me phrase in detail what my understanding is. And feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

    What Embark did is to train a specific model on a specific voice. I agree. But the base of this model is to be capable of understanding how any voice works in order to copy how a specific voice work. In other words. This means that the technology/model has first been built using thousands of recordings to “understand” how human voice works. And then there has been a last layer to copy a specific voice. I am simplifying of course. But I want to express how much I am disagreeing with the “they only used one specific voice”. Technology isn’t magic, we as a society don’t understand how to make a program that can copy a single voice to make it say anything perfectly. We can use an amalgam of thousands of them to build a neural network (what some call AI) to statistically mimic what a human voice is. And then feed it a single voice to mimic.

    Sorry for the long response.

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    • realitaetsverlust@piefed.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Don’t tell me they HAD to use genAI instead of paying those voice actors for reshoot to begin with.

      The didn’t have to, but it certainly makes it easier. And I find it silly to not use a technology that makes something easier if you have it available. That’s like a farmer plowing his field by hand instead of using a tractor.

      But the base of this model is to be capable of understanding how any voice works in order to copy how a specific voice work.

      First of all, we had Text-To-Speech way before any kind of generative AI. In germany, we had speech synthesized announcements on railway stations for like 15 years at least. Like this here: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AuIkJ_UGltI. We also had vocaloids for decades now. So it’s wrong to assume we had no idea how voices work before AI.

      Second, I get your stance on “I’m not using AI because somewhere up the chain it was developed by morally ambiguous ways”, but I don’t think that makes anything better. You should rate the current use-case, not something that happened earlier in the production chain. AI in itself is not bad. If used properly, it’s an incredibly helpful tool. There’s other and much better hills to die on imo.

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    • Holytimes@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I have played enough games that have lasted enough time to know that it’s not uncommon to be unable to get a voice actor to come back for many reasons up to and including death or retirement.

      For them to be able to have a consistent voice throughout without having to rely on that in the voice, actor only has to do a one-time gig get paid in the potentially earn a small annual stipend from the project depending on their contract.

      Genai for voices is really really good in that case. You can sell the use of your voice to train a model for a small lump sum with a yearly licensing fee or a large up front sum.

      Easier in a more reliable paycheck for the voice actor. As long as the contract is fair and compensation is done correctly and the licensing is on a strictly project by project basis. So no using that trained AI from multiple projects.

      Like this is probably the single best example of using genai that we can really hope for. It could be a slight bit better. Sure, but this is already leaps and bounds ahead of anything else.

      Bespoke case by case trained AI with contractual agreements for payment in licensing.

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• Alchalide@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  But its in agreement with the voice actors. I don’t get the big deal. I’m not pro AI but why would you abandon a game you enjoy for that reason? Praise them for making an Unreal engine game that looks and runs great.

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  • HailSeitan@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Because desperate voice actors famously have so much leverage in contract negotiations, right? Why do you think Hollywood actors and writers unions went on strike in 2023?

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  • Chef6652@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I agree, this game has an awesome tech team making a clear counter-argument to UE5 haters (I hate UE5, they used very well imho). The graphism are cool and the art is really a work of art! I love the world design, lore, color grading, design-language, weapon design, etc.

    The voice acting got through what I consider my keen 6th sense of AI-detection (which scares me tbh). But this is something that I cannot let go, I don’t want to. Even though everything else is (for a multiplayer game) top-notch imo.

    What’s the boundary if we let them do this to one aspect of the game then? What amount of AI slop are we going to accept in the future if we allow corporations to AI-creep into everything?

    I want to vote with my wallet and with my voice to support what I think isn’t the right direction.

    Even though the voice actors signed the contract: I, as a customer/fan, don’t want workers signing off their ability to work more. These voice actors won’t ever work again with Embark now, Embark don’t need another recording session from them. Ok, actors waved that opportunity away willingly. But I don’t want the whole industry to become like this.

    It’s not because the genAI trend isn’t going away that we aren’t allowed to adapt to it. My adaptation is to fight for an AI-free label.

    PS: On another front, Embark has made millions, if not more on this game. Don’t tell me they HAD to use genAI instead of paying those voice actors for reshoot to begin with.

    I love the dev behind ARC Raiders. I hate the management team that forced AI into the project (I can’t prove this claim, call that a hunch)

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    • Alchalide@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      The reason I’ve heard they are doing it so they can pump out dialoge faster and they don’t have to let the voice actors come in for every line whenever they add a new map with new way points for example.

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    • _cryptagion@anarchist.nexus ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      But this is something that I cannot let go, I don’t want to.

      that’s too bad, considering most people are looking at this with a rational mind and don’t agree with you, and you have no ability to change it by yourself.

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  • hzl@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    If SAG hadn’t gone on strike, Netflix would also have been making agreements with actors to use their voice and likeness without actually offering future work too. Was SAG wrong to push against this?

    Just because someone makes a deal doesn’t mean it isn’t a toxic business practice that’s bad for the industry or the people involved in it. People also agree to work for subpar wages, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t push for higher minimum wages.

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  • FatVegan@leminal.space ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    While i think it sucks, and the only reason they take this weird approach is that the embark guy is a turbo AI bro. What i don’t understand why they even bother, since arc raiders has only like 10 voice lines

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• CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I installed Arc Raiders from my family sharing group, fired it up then closed it and uninstalled it as soon as it says I need to create YET ANOTHER account just to play this game.

  I’m done creating an account for every single game.

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  • bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Yep. I wish others were brave enough to actually make a change. Accounts are purely there to steal data and further enrich thieves.

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    • cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      And beyond that, they’re just uselessly annoying for consumers

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  • cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Oh it’s one of those? Same reason I returned red dead redemption 2.

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  • Lemmchen@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    You are aware that you see beforehand whether the game requires a separate account (at least on Steam)? Also, how else would you enable crossplay/crosssave?
    And you don’t even need to use separate credentials. You can log in with Steam just fine.

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    • CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      You are aware that you see beforehand whether the game requires a separate account (at least on Steam)?

      No, because as I indicated in my post, I didn’t buy it. I installed it from someone else’s account within my family group.

      Also, how else would you enable crossplay/crosssave?

      I don’t know, but not my concern.

      And you don’t even need to use separate credentials. You can log in with Steam just fine.

      Not according to the prompt I was shown.

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  • BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    No! Not having to create an account that keeps your account available cross platform!

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  • TORFdot0@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I don’t think it’s that big of deal, doesn’t it just link the account to your steam/psn/xbox live? I don’t even remember making a password for the account. It’s not like you also have to log in to another worthless launcher like blizzard/ubisoft/ea games on steam. That’s where I draw the line.

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    • CeeBee_Eh@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It wanted me to make an Embark Studios account. And yes that is a big deal.

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• wizblizz@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Really appreciate you bringing awareness and expressing concern on this, as it has the potential to abuse artists. Folks seem quick to handwave it away instead of taking the measured, thoughtful approach it deserves. Artists need to be protected first and foremost.

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• _cryptagion@anarchist.nexus ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  they aren’t “stealing” actors, you twit. the voice actors were hired to make the “AI” voices. in reality it’s not even AI, it’s a text-to-speech system and voice modulator, for those who want to use the raider voice for VOIP because they don’t want people hearing their voice.

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  • Chef6652@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    First, please stay civil. I didn’t insult you. Don’t insult me.

    Secondly I mark the difference between the accessibility feature of voice changer and the voice lines that could have been 100% recorded by a professional voice actor to begin with.

    Because in the second case, this is just cost-cutting in order to maximise profit on the back of voice actors imho.

    Marketing this as “text-to-speech” is oversimplyfying at best, dishonest at worst. People need to work, we can’t blame the voice actors. But in the end they still are working against themselves/their peers by allowing corporations/studios to copy their unique features to prevent working with them in the future.

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    • _cryptagion@anarchist.nexus ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I’m glad we’ll always have liberals to tell us what we should be outraged about. instead of asking those VA whether or not they’re offended by what they agreed to, you’ve stolen their voice and declared yourself the arbiter of what they should feel. you’ve decided your opinion is more important than theirs. what sort of narcissistic outrage farming junkie does that? where do you get off, stealing the voice from others who can speak for themselves?

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• TORFdot0@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Do they charge real money for worthless cosmetics in this game? You think they’d be able to afford to bring the original voice actors back in to re-record some lines for updates, if that’s the case.

  Seems kind of ironic for a game that’s about capitalists fucking the earth and leaving to space while the rest of humanity is plagued by AI death machines for generations.

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• regdog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  The AI voice changer in Arc is a fun thing to have. I am glad it exists.

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• BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Embark already used AI voices for The Finals, it’s not like this is anything new.

  Let’s be real here, AI is here to stay. It’s much better that they hired VAs to provide the source material than the alternative: not doing that.

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• pressedhams@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I mean, it’s a garbage game so, any reason to not play it I guess.

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  • Lemmchen@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Ah, yes, ragebait on lemmy. How fabulous.

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    • pressedhams@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      💅

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  • fishy@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I found the game to be pretty shit. It’s like fallout, but just the boring looting trash and constantly balancing inventory part, but with the added fun of people multiple times your level one shotting you.

    5 hours in and I’ve got no desire to play it anymore.

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    • pressedhams@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I share the sentiment.

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