we call it Japan from the name Marco Polo gave it, Cipango, which should come from the name of some random island he ended up in. we call it Greece because the Romans called it Graecia, for reasons I can’t figure out
How do names of countries get translated? What is the reason why Nippon/Nihon is called Japan or Ellada is called Greece in English?
Submitted 1 year ago by pinchcramp@lemmy.dbzer0.com to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world
Comments
6mementomori@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Nouveau_Burnswick@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Because they thought it was full of greasy bastards?
SacrificedBeans@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Interestingly, the Romans called the Greeks Grekili , a degrading term, signifying they were fallen, decadent and servile. This is thought to be because allegedly the Greeks were not fans of straightforward battle, but preferred other tactics like ambushes and night-attacks.
hellothere@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
The short answer is that the name for “old world” countries in a language isn’t translated, it is simply what “we” call “them”, not what “they” call themselves.
Using Greece as an example for English, English has a lot of French influence, which in turn had a lot of Latin influence. It is believed the early Latin (ie modern day Italian) peoples first met Graecians, a tribe likely from Boeotia in modern day Greece, and used the name to refer to all people from the same place.
A more modern or current example would be how people often called The Netherlands, Holland. Same idea, just several millenia apart.
whileloop@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I agree with you, but I think the name Netherlands comes from the land being low.
Nemo@midwest.social 1 year ago
But we call it Holland, even though Holland is just one portion of the whole country.
itsnicodegallo@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Yes, it literally means “lowlands”, but that’s it’s actual name used by the people from that country in the primary language of the people from that country.
Holland is just a city in the Netherlands, but people refer to the entire country as “Holland” sometimes.
morgan_423@lemmy.world 1 year ago
There are actually specific words in the English language for precisely what you’re talking about.
Endonym - The native name of a geologic feature or place. From your example: Nihon in Japanese.
Exonym - The foreign name of a geologic feature or place. From your example: Japan in English.
Enigma@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
I wish r/askhistorians mods would come here. This is a great question for them, if you’re looking for in depth and cited replies.
bricklove@midwest.social 1 year ago
That’s the subreddit I miss the most. Some of the best history content on the web
Hotzilla@sopuli.xyz 1 year ago
There is also a other example in Europe, Finland. We finns call it Suomi, and everyone else calls us Finland. Origin of Finland is also from Romans, because they called us Fenni. Origin of Suomi is unknown, but there are multiple theories.
nocturne213@lemmy.world 1 year ago
i thought the name Finland was from Norwegian.
reddig33@lemmy.world 1 year ago
It’s strange that we still use these weird synonyms in English for real names that are just as easy to pronounce.
miserablegit@lemmynsfw.com 1 year ago
It’s an issue of convention, which is underneath an issue of power - i.e. who decides the convention? Do foreigners have a right to effectively modify how a place is called? Or does that power rely exclusively on the locals?
For a long time, “foreigners” avowed that right to them: it was the colonial era, after all, and colonial powers were “obviously” right in privileging their rules.
In the post-colonial world, things have changed. It has now been accepted, roughly, that the right to self-determination extends to determining how others should call them and their countries. These rights are pretty new, in the overall history of mankind, and somewhat nebulous, so old conventions linger; but the countries more determined to be treated as equal on the world stage (China, India…) have already put it into action and insisted that their preferred names be used. Not doing so would be uncourteous, a bit of a slap in the face.
Personally, I’m all for the new rule, I just wish it was consistent for everyone. My home country doesn’t contain any “Florence”, but it does have Firenze; the above-mentioned Padua is actually Padova; Venice should be Venezia, Rome Roma, Turin Torino, Genoa Genova, etc etc.
Blaster_M@lemmy.world 1 year ago
The entire population of Turkey: It’s spelled Türkiye
reddig33@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Reminds me of not adopting the metric system. A combination of history and inertia.
merc@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
Another possibility people here aren’t mentioning: many countries are new.
For example, Greece. There’s talk about “Ancient Greece”, “Hellenistic Greece”, “Classical Greece”, etc. But, in 227 BC Sparta invaded Achaea. In the 6th century BC, Ionia was “Greek” but is on what is now part of Turkey. In the 1200s there was the Principality of Achaea, the Dutchy of Athens, the Kingdom of Thessalonica (under Constantinople) and Negroponte, Rhodes, Crete, etc. which were under Venice.
The idea that there are a group of people who consider themselves part of a whole that includes Athens, Rhodes and Kavala but not Constantinople or Izmit (Nicomedia) is pretty new. Since the name “Greece” is older than the modern idea of “Greece”, it’s no surprise that there’s a mismatch in the names.
radix@lemm.ee 1 year ago
When people speaking one language encounter another people, then the first group will only refer to the second group by their endonym if they respect the second group’s autonomy and identity. Their first instinct is just to call them by whatever details might distinguish them (“Netherlands” because the land is pretty close to sea level), or even by what they might say often (the somewhat derogatory “gook” comes from when American soldiers heard Koreans say “Miguk” which is “America” in Korea; also, I think there are some Indigenous Americans whose English names were simply their language’s translation of “I don’t understand what you are saying”, but I can’t remember what groups).
scutiger@lemmy.world 1 year ago
If you look at the characters the Japanese use for the name of their country, 日本 is pronounced Nihon in Japanese. The same characters in Chinese spell Riben (in Pinyin) which is pronounced closer to “Erben” but almost with a J sound, especially in the northern part of the country. If you heard the Chinese pronunciation, you could easily understand how a foreigner would translate it to “Japan.”
Nurgle@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Stolen from a Reddit thread cause the top answer isn’t super accurate (tldr Japanese “nipon” to Portuguese to Italian to English)
The first three Europeans that arrived in Japan in 1543 were Portuguese traders (António Mota, Francisco Zeimoto and António Peixoto). They were on a Chinese trading ship that had been blown off course and stopped on the island of Tanegashima to take on fresh water.
The Portuguese had three names for Japan. This is evidenced by the title of the 1603 Portuguese Japanese dictionary (Vocabvlario da Lingoa de Iapam) which uses Iapam and within in its pages also provides two other pronunciations for Japan being iippon and nifon. The reason for the multiple names appears to be due to:
The Portuguese first got the name Japan from the Chinese which called it Riben in Mandarin. Iippon is a relatively close translation of this word that sort of works for the Portuguese tongue. However, the Chinese language of wayfarers and the one that the first Portuguese to arrive in Japan would have heard would have been either Shanghainese or Hokkien (the dialect from Fujian). Shanghainese would have pronounced Nippon as Zeppen. Hokkien would have pronounced Nippon as Ji̍tpún. Nifon would have been relatively close to both. The Japanese that the Jesuits, who compiled the dictionary, would have likely to have spoken would have been influenced by the Japanese spoken in Nagasaki, which is where the Portuguese main base was. The accent of Nagasaki is what is called a Nikei-accent system, and widely used in south-west Kyushu. It has two contrasting tonal patterns, irrespective of the number of moras in the word. Thus Nippon would be Ni-Pon which then translates to Ia-pam
The Italians then started using the term Iapam. The largest Italian city of that era was Padua. Given the round about way the word Iapam got to Padua and based on the Italian spoken then, it got translated to Giapan. In an English travel book published in 1577 called “The History of trauayle in the VVest and East Indies …” the term Giapan was used.
Given that the Italian Gi sounds like J, it is not surprising that the English swapped Gi for J resulting in Japan.
Thus how Nippon became Japan appears tortuous starting with Portuguese being influenced by the type of Japanese spoken by the Jesuits in the 16th Century. Then from the three terms that the Portuguese used, the one that was perceived and recieved in Padua was Iapam, which was then translated into Italian as Giapan. And then how Giapan, used in the first known English travel journal that used the name, became anglicized into Japan.