You call people what they want to be called. This is universal respect since forever.
If you accept nicknames, but struggle with pronouns, your problem is bigotry.
Demanding a pronoun is like demanding a burkas.
Submitted 3 days ago by big_fat_fluffy@leminal.space to showerthoughts@lemmy.world
Comments
yesman@lemmy.world 3 days ago
big_fat_fluffy@leminal.space 3 days ago
It’s a combination of what you want me to call you, what I want to call you, what the conventions of our culture suggest that I call you and what’s convenient to the context, actually.
Kbobabob@lemmy.world 2 days ago
what I want to call you
Like that matters, lol. You either call them what they ask to be called or fuck off.
Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Not at all.
Demanding a pronoun is like demanding that someone call you by your name.
Demanding a burka is like demanding someone else respond to whatever pronoun YOU want to call them.
One is demanding that people refer to you the way you want to be referred. The other is forcing something into someone else.
ExtremeDullard@lemmy.sdf.org 3 days ago
I think OP meant you using the wrong pronoun when talking to someone who would rather you didn’t is akin to imprisoning that someone into a burka.
Which clearly is something someone in the first world without too many problems in life would say.
Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Oh, maybe I misunderstood. If that’s the case, I guess that’s at least a more accurate comparison than what I thought they meant.
I thought they meant that someone asking them to use a preferred pronoun was like forcing them to wear a burka.
roofuskit@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Nope, OP said that making someone use a pronoun is akin to demanding a burka
vk6flab@lemmy.radio 3 days ago
That does assume that the person wearing the burka is doing so because they are forced to.
This is not universally true and thus the comparison you make is also not true.
Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 3 days ago
The term “demanding” led me to that assumption.
If someone wants to wear one, that’s fine, and irrelevant to this conversation. I was referring to people who are forced to wear one despite their wishes.
nick@midwest.social 3 days ago
Dumb.
TheBananaKing@lemmy.world 3 days ago
What do you think a pronoun is?
ExtremeDullard@lemmy.sdf.org 3 days ago
It’s like a noun, but for pros!
big_fat_fluffy@leminal.space 3 days ago
Are you implying that a pronoun is an item of clothing?
TheBananaKing@lemmy.world 3 days ago
No, I’m asking you what you think a pronoun is.
You can tell by the fact that it’s what I said.
Sendpicsofsandwiches@sh.itjust.works 3 days ago
Nice b8 m8
merthyr1831@lemmy.ml 3 days ago
fuck off to Reddit
Kolanaki@yiffit.net 3 days ago
Only if you mean when someone is demanding another person to go by a specific pronoun and not someone demanding others respect their own pronouns.
IE if you’re demanding a trans woman to be called a man, that is like demanding a woman to wear a burka.
big_fat_fluffy@leminal.space 3 days ago
The form of language is dictated by the preferences of all those involved in the conversation, the conventions of their shared culture, and other context. For a person to insist that everybody involved bend to his sole preference in this is unrealistic.
BorgDrone@lemmy.one 3 days ago
The form of language is dictated by the preferences of all those involved in the conversation
No, it really isn’t.
Kolanaki@yiffit.net 3 days ago
So would you be fine if I referred to you as a bitch, or would you insist I refer to you by a specific name or pronoun?
zbyte64@awful.systems 3 days ago
Whatever you just said is like demanding a burka. It’s performative stupid.
ilega_dh@feddit.nl 3 days ago
5/7 ragebait
big_fat_fluffy@leminal.space 3 days ago
That’s fair.
roofuskit@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Such a fragile little creature.
ssladam@lemmy.world 2 days ago
Repurposing existing pronouns is the problem. Other languages have nice, gender neutral pronouns. We just need a nice new, singular gender neutral pronoun.
Example…
He/she/fai Him/her/hai
Then make it standard to use the neutral version where gender doesn’t matter. Telling a story about your teacher? Is it pertinent we need to know the gender? No? Then standardize on the neutral version.
English has always been one of the most fluid languages. Why stop now? Just fix it.
NONE_dc@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Could you elaborate, please? to discard any misinterpretation.
big_fat_fluffy@leminal.space 3 days ago
Demanding that a person speak a certain way is like demanding that a person dress a certain way.
NONE_dc@lemmy.world 3 days ago
So, if someone “demands” to be referred to using a specific type of pronouns, it is like forcing others to wear a Burka?
Am I getting it right?
southsamurai@sh.itjust.works 3 days ago
Look, your comments show what you’re saying better than your post. So keeping that in mind, you’ve made an error.
See, while language is a consensus based thing, or isn’t the only determinant of how it’s used. The consensus doesn’t inherently forbid individual usages.
So, the idea that me insisting on my pronouns be used is not the same as a burka or similar garb.
Now, I get part of your argument, that there’s a point at which highly individualized pronouns become enough of a hassle that expecting anyone to remember them is an exercise in futility. You aren’t going to shift the way a language functions like that, it just isn’t going to happen that everyone gets to pick their own pronoun/s when they aren’t also a part of the current language structure.
That’s not a matter of right or wrong, it’s a purely practical thing. To create that kind of shift in language requires broad acceptance of the idea, and it being part of early language acquisition. In other words, if you aren’t learning the structure of completely individual pronouns as part of your learning your language as a very small child, then that’s going to always be unfamiliar and awkward. It will take conscious effort to use the proposed change.
And that’s where the barrier is. It’s easy enough to get folks on board with he/she/they because it’s already there in the unwritten rules we pick up passively. Once you start trying to invent words, you have to convince other people they’re useful at all. Then you have to teach them what those words mean, when to use them or not use them, and how they’re supposed to be applied when a niche situation arises.
As an example, xe and xey replacing not only the gendered he/she, but the agender they in consistent way. It kinda makes sense, though English isn’t a great language to use x as the first letter of a word. There’s other languages that only have a single pronoun for individuals and one for multiplies, so the concept is easy to swallow.
But, you still have to convince people that there’s a good reason to switch. There’s people that already fight hard for the right to have their gendered pronouns recognized, and won’t give that up because it matters to them. You’ve got people that will (accurately) point out that we already have the singular “they”, so adding another word in is not useful. You’ve got people that will object because the you’ll still have to teach the previous forms so that people can read the centuries of writing already out there.
That’s a huge barrier to overcome, and that’s just for one change.
And there isn’t a single consensus about what alternate pronouns to add/replace. There’s multiple competing ones, so there’s no critical mass of people to shift the majority.
To be clear though, none of that is the equivalent of forcing you to wear a burka. None of it.
That’s where you screwed up. You conflated two things that are absolutely not the same, crammed them into a ragebait title, and didn’t think it through before posting.
Mind you, that last part assumes you don’t actually believe the tripe and are just playing around with ideas. I prefer not to assume malice, until it is so certain it can’t be alienated avoided.
DragonsInARoom@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Who?
DomeGuy@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Who the fuck demands people present pronouns? You either do it, or you accept either sometimes being misgendered or getting an indeterminate “they”.
Or are you just trying to start the new year bitching about people insisting on common courtesy after helpfully specifying their own preferred pronouns?
EABOD25@lemm.ee 3 days ago
I don’t understand the whole controversy of pronouns. If a person says “Hey, call me this instead of this” that’s fine. I don’t have to go out my way to do what you request. If it bothers people to go against the “ebb and flow” on something so simple, then that’s their personal problem.
However comparing it to a burka, then it almost seems like the opposite side having an issue with people who don’t adhere to your standard. the whole argument is completely asinine because I don’t understand why it’s should matter and why people that prefer something besides their default pronoun get so upset about what other people think.
We as individual people have too much shit on our plate as it is. Why are you going to get mad because someone that you could easily remove from your life (because you don’t like them for a possible myriad of reasons) has spited you? Live your own life and stop getting mad about how others live there’s.
Now with that being said, I’ve never had a family member that I love come out requesting a different pronoun beside default (also i personally think saying “default” is the best way to approach it), so i can’t say exactly how I would react.
T00l_shed@lemmy.world 3 days ago
It’s really easy, say your name is Tom, and I start calling you Stacy all the time, you’re going to get bothered by it eventually at best Or downright fuming at worst. It literally takes you nothing to use the right nouns/pronouns.
tiefling@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 days ago
People never seem to have problems with changing pronouns when it’s for someone’s pet
“Cute dog what’s his name”
“Oh she’s Luna”
“I love her!”
big_fat_fluffy@leminal.space 3 days ago
Speak this word or I’ll be upset
Wear this thing or I’ll be upset
You gotta admid it’s a pretty good parallel
Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Nope. Literally opposites.
You are imposing YOUR will on another when you purposely use the wrong pronoun.
YOU ARE THE OPPRESSOR, NOT THE OPPRESSED.
spongebue@lemmy.world 3 days ago
“respect who I am or I’ll be upset”
“This is who you need to be or I’ll be upset”
Nope, not seeing it.
roofuskit@lemmy.world 3 days ago
So if I just refer to you by the wrong pronouns all the time you won’t get upset? Or if I change your name out for fatty, or fat fuck?
NOT_RICK@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Not really, no.