Realistically, immutability wouldn't have made a difference. Definition updates like this are generally not considered part of the provisioned OS (since they change somewhere around hourly) and would go into /var or the like, which is mutable persistent state on nearly every otherwise immutable OS. Snapshots like Timeshift are more likely to help.
To what extent, if at all, would have CrowdStrike's faulty update have been made easier to deal with with an immutable distro?
Submitted 3 months ago by snek_boi@lemmy.ml to technology@lemmy.world
Comments
chameleon@fedia.io 3 months ago
wisha@lemmy.ml 3 months ago
Anything that’s updated with the OS can be rolled back. Now Windows is Windows so Crowdstrike handles things it’s own way. But I bet if Canonical or RedHat were to make their own versions of Crowdstrike, they would push updates through the o regular packages repo, allowing it to be rolled back.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 3 months ago
It’s a huge reason why I use BTRFS snapshots. I’m a bit more lax about what gets snapshotted on my desktop, not on a server, everything should live in a snapshot. If an update goes bad, revert to the last snapshot (and snapshots are cheap, so run one with every change).
5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 months ago
Laypeople couldn’t fix it even more.
jabjoe@feddit.uk 3 months ago
They can’t fix Windows either, so that’s not an argument.
Least if it’s a Linux system, they don’t need to buy any software to sort it out. It’s free and out in the open.
5714@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 months ago
Yeah? Immutable distro, clownstrike kernel panic, what tool do you use now? Remember, you ‘need’ clownstrike.
hperrin@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Immutable, not really a difference. Bad updates can still break the OS.
AB root, however, it would be much easier to fix, but would still be a manual process.
sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 3 months ago
Aren’t most immutable Linux distros AB, almost by definition? If it’s immutable, you can’t update the system because it’s immutable. If you make it mutable for updates, it’s no longer immutable.
The process should be:
- Boot from A
- Install new version to B
- Reboot into B
- If unstable, go to 1
- If stable, repeat from 1, but with A and B swapped
That’s how immutable systems work. The main alternative is a PXE system, and in that case you fix the image in one place and power cycle all your machines.
If you’re mounting your immutable system as mutable for updates, congratulations, you have the worst of immutable and mutable systems and you deserve everything bad that happens because of it.
brian@programming.dev 3 months ago
idk if it would be manual, isn’t the point of ab root to rollback if it doesn’t properly boot afterwards?
barsoap@lemm.ee 3 months ago
Honestly if you’re managing kernel and userspace remotely it’s your own fault if you don’t netboot.
lemmyng@lemmy.ca 3 months ago
If the sensor was using eBPF (as any modern sensor on Linux should) then the faulty update would have made the sensor crash, but the system would still be stable. But CrowdStrike has a long history of using stupid forms of integration, so I wouldn’t put it past them to also load a kernel module that fucks things up unless it’s blacklisted in the bootloader. Fortunately that kind of recovery is, if not routine, at least well documented and standardized.
NekkoDroid@programming.dev 3 months ago
I did hear that one of their newer versions does use eBPF, but I haven’t even remotely looked into it.
lemmyng@lemmy.ca 3 months ago
They do have a bpf sensor. It’s still shite, managing to periodically peg a CPU core on an idle system. They just lifted and shifted their legacy code into the bpf sensor, they don’t actually make good use of eBPF capabilities.
marcos@lemmy.world 3 months ago
You mean like NixOS?
It wouldn’t technically stop anything, it would just make your live Hell on Earth if you tried to add that self-updating ring-0 proprietary software in your servers.
But I guess what you are looking for is immutable infrastructure? That one would stop the problem.
jabjoe@feddit.uk 3 months ago
Can’t see many Linux, or BSD, admins, being happy with “self-updating ring-0 proprietary software”. That’s very much a Windows culture thing.
marcos@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Did you hear about it when that same software had that same problem on its Linux endpoint system a couple of months ago?
Well, me neither. I can’t tell how much of if is “anybody willing to use something like that will also want a Windows server” (crazy people), or “nobody that wants Linux would accept it”. Those two are not exactly the same, and I don’t know how well the auditors that keep pushing this kind of shit into companies interact with the culture.
kenkenken@sh.itjust.works 3 months ago
In the best case it could automatically reboot into working configuration.
4am@lemm.ee 3 months ago
And download the update again
Entropywins@lemmy.world 3 months ago
No we are having some fun!
Morphit@feddit.uk 3 months ago
How does Falcon store these channel files on Linux? I don’t know how an immutable distro would handle this given CrowdStrike push several of these updates per day and presumably use their own infrastructure to deploy them.
I guess if you pay them enough they could customize the deployment to work with whatever infrastructure you have but it’s all proprietary so I have no idea if they’re really doing that anywhere.
BigDaddyRAAB@lemm.ee 3 months ago
Nixos wouldn’t have had any issues, it maintains state information based on configuration and you can choose to load an older boot image during bootloader. Other immutable distros it depends on how they work
nous@programming.dev 3 months ago
Nixos still let’s discord and steam download their core files independently of the configuration. These get stored in the users home dir but are effectively not part of the immutable promise. I believe that the crowdstrike problem was caused by a file updated in a similar manor. So would have been an issue on any distro. That is one big problem with a driver relying on files outside the package managers control. At least with steam and discord they cannot take your whole system down.
BigDaddyRAAB@lemm.ee 3 months ago
My understanding is the main problem here is that the machines became effectively unbootable. This wouldn’t happen in nixos because if setup properly all core system files are handled by nixos itself. That being said obviously it depends on how a user manages their system.
fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com 3 months ago
None. You’d still have to be on site for every machine.
shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 3 months ago
Turn off computer boot from previous day’s image, wipe current day’s image, continue using computer.
intelisense@lemm.ee 3 months ago
That’s all well and good, but many of these Windows machines were headless or used by extremely non-technical people - think tills at your supermarket or airport check-in desks. Worse, some of these installations were running in the cloud, so console access would have been tricky.
Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world 3 months ago
Funny you should mention people at the airport. I work at the airport, but not for Fronteer. My sister was flying on thursday, and nobody could get a boarding pass printed. When I came down, thinking my sister was throwing a tantrum over nothing, I see a line longer than a football field. When trying to ask a Fronteer employee what happened, he just threw his hands in the air and said “I DON’T FUCKING KNOW, OK??? NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON!!! YOU SEE THIS??? YOU SEE THIS SHIT??? YOU THINK I’M JUST DENYING PEOPLE FOR FUN??? WHY DON’T I GO GRAB MY TRIDENT, AND I CAN STAB ALL OF YOU OVER AN OPEN FLAME!!! BECAUSE I’M THE DEVIL, RIGHT??? RIGHT??? THAT’S WHAT YOU’RE SAYING!!!”
And all I said was “Hey, my sister is flying today and…”
You think THAT guy is going to sit there and reformat a PC, or restore PC snapshots to previous update? He’s the kind of guy who SHOULD BE smoking weed at work. This platform is very tech savy, but they often forget that a very very small percentage of people hold their PC knowledge. Now what would happen if I threw a tech savy person into an auto garage, and told him to replace the gaskets of an engine. Would they know how? Would they enjoy a room full of mechanics laughing at them?
I’m not saying you specifically. I’m agreeing with you. I’m just adding to your point to an audience that I think sometimes misses the forest through the trees.
shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 3 months ago
The cloud systems would have been a problem. Any local systems, a non-technical user, could have easily done because their IT department could simply tell them, turn on your computer, and when it gets to this screen with these words, press the down arrow key one time and press enter, and your computer will boot normally.
Yaztromo@lemmy.world 3 months ago
…until the CrowdStrike agent updated, and you wind up dead in the water again.
The whole point of CrowdStrike is to be able to detect and prevent security vulnerabilities, including zero-days. As such, they can release updates multiple times per day. Rebooting in a known-safe state is great, but unless you follow that up with disabling the agent from redownloading the sensor configuration update again, you’re just going to wing up in a BSOD loop.
A better architectural solution like would have been to have Windows drivers run in Ring 1, giving the kernel the ability to isolate those that are misbehaving. But that risks a small decrease in performance, and Microsoft didn’t want that, so we’re stuck with a Ring 0/Ring 3 only architecture in Windows that can cause issues like this.
nous@programming.dev 3 months ago
That assums the file is not stored on a writable section of the filesystem and treated as application data and thus wouldn’t survive a rollback. Which it likey would.
Artyom@lemm.ee 3 months ago
Wouldn’t help (on its own), you’d still get auto-updated to the broken version.
shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 3 months ago
If I’m correct wasn’t a fix found and deployed within several hours, so the next auto update would not have likely had the same issue.
Lodra@programming.dev 3 months ago
I’m familiar enough with Linux but never used an immutable distro. I recognize the technical difference between what you describe and “go delete a specific file in safe mode”. But how about the more generic statement? Is this much different from “boot in a special way and go fix the problem”? Is any easier or more difficult than what people had to do on windows?
shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 3 months ago
Primarily it’s different because you would not have had to boot into any safe mode. You would have just booted from the last good image from like a day ago and deleted the current image and kept using the computer.
fmstrat@lemmy.nowsci.com 3 months ago
Would still need to be on site.
shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 3 months ago
True