Comment on Is Boeing in big trouble? World's largest aerospace firm faces 10 more whistleblowers after sudden death of two

• OpenStars@discuss.online ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Tbf the evidence for the second person is not strong - that stuff does legit happen.

  But the first guy? Damn! That’s enough right there.

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  • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Well isn’t there a ruling in aircraft design and safety, that you calculate the probability of a certain failure and judge by its reoccurence if it was just random, or more than likely systematic?

    I think i read this in context to the two MAX planes crashing in the exact same way. The first one was ruled as maybe just being some very very freak thing to happen, but it happening twice made it entirely implausible to be without systematic cause.

    And well now it is happening twice in a few years with Boeing that weird things happen twice in a row with little time in between in relation to critical security flaws.

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    • OpenStars@discuss.online ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well isn’t there a ruling in aircraft design and safety, that you calculate the probability of a certain failure and judge by its reoccurence if it was just random, or more than likely systematic?

      It sounds like neither of us know the answer to that, so I choose not to comment on that matter.

      I think i read this in context to the two MAX planes crashing in the exact same way.

      But how does that apply? One guy was a “suicide”, the other was bacteria - you just said it yourself, the metric only works if they crash “in the exact same way”, therefore by your own words, this seems to not apply?

      There is a natural human bias to want to “know” things. Sometimes we even make shit up out of desperation to fill that void, but the more honest way (but HARD to do, emotionally, as in it seriously goes against the grain of our pattern-finding brain’s natural instinctual algorithms) is to simply say “I do not know the answer here”. Please don’t misunderstand me as saying that it is likely that the second guy was not killed - that would be 100% tangential to what I am trying to convey!

      Rather, I am saying that the first guy looks to have been Epstein-ed, but we don’t know enough yet about the second guy. Could you imagine someone sent to kill him, and having a whole plan in place so that he wouldn’t even make it home but rather be taken care of in the car on the way there, but then he dies in his hospital bed first -> do you still get paid!?:-P Asking the important questions here!!:-D

      But again, what happened to the first guy is already enough to know that some shady shit is going on. And yeah, that should make us think twice about the second guy… but having done so, I think that we just don’t know enough there to make a firm determination like we could for the first guy, without additional evidence. Which does not absolve Boeing one iota for being so shitty for the last few years.

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      • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        I agree, that we cannot rule either death to be an assassination by itself. But their distinct occurrence in this context, e.g. that they prevent whistleblowers from testifying warrants an in depth investigation into both of them. In particular given the circumstances it is sketchy if Police or other officials are eager to close the case and rule it as non assassinations, without actually analyzing what was going on.

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    • just_another_person@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Again, a dozen whistleblowers now, and 2 died fairly quickly after coming out.

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      • gregorum@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        *after agreeing to testify

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      • ulterno@lemmy.kde.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Maybe Boeing will learn from their mistakes and go for using their relatives as leverage or tarnishing their reputation by framing them with treason instead.

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      • bolexforsoup@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        So that’s enough to claim a successful conspiracy an American corporation to murder 2 people?

        I have multiple comments now, it’s certainly warrants investigation. To completely the ignore it would be ridiculous. But y’all are absolutely a pitchfork mob over this stuff. You have already decided what the truth is and no investigation will satisfy you unless it says Boeing murdered both people.

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    • Zink@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I don’t know if that’s a rule of thumb or not, but it certainly makes sense.

      First, the world of reliability runs on data and math. Lots of statistics, of course.

      And second, aircraft are over-engineered for safety margins on top of safety margins. The test data might say you need a part that’s X thickness of aluminum in order to be 99% sure to never fail in the field. So let’s just make it 3X thickness to be safe!

      So from that standpoint, back to back failures should pretty much always draw a bunch of attention in this industry.

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  • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I did do the math on it and the second guy only had a 1 in 3630 chance of dying of natural causes in that time window.

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    • bolexforsoup@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yes if you’re including the entire population which is not how stats works as his demographic is exponentially more at risk than many others (age, onset of pneumonia, etc)

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      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        lemmy.world/comment/9809397

        I admit I am not a stats guy. Please tell me what I did wrong in my math. Totally open to being corrected here.

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    • OpenStars@discuss.online ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      We do ourselves no favors by sounding like conspiracy nutjobs who are uninterested in facts. When they go low, we should retain the high road, imho.

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      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Yeah yeah I suck, get in line and take a number. Now, will attacking me bring those two murdered men back to life?

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• NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Yes. What you are listing are coincidences.

  Also understand that it is pretty rare for a whistleblower to have any future in the industry they are blowing the whistle on. That is throwing away years of schooling and often decades of experience. People tend to not do that if they aren’t already ill and not expecting a long life.

  As for “if I die, it is not suicide”: Gonna get real dark for a moment. A lot of people are just looking for a way to make their life, or death, matter. Someone realizing they don’t want to put themselves and their family through a very long trial might very well use that as an excuse to take the easy way out.

  All that said: Obviously these need to be investigated. But there is a big difference between investigating a suspicious death and immediately jumping to conspiracy.

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  • parpol@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    [deleted]

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    • NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      And suicide rates go up drastically when people are overly stressed and think they have no future. Sort of like… having contributed to incredibly dangerous air travel and burning bridges with an entire industry.

      Similarly, like I said, a lot of whistleblowers are ill to begin with. Because, again, it is throwing away your future in an industry. It is a lot easier to consider that when your future on this planet is measured in years or even months.

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    • bolexforsoup@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      You don’t compare the stats to the population in its entirety. That’s like trying to calculate how dangerous it is for cyclists on the road by using the entire population. Most Americans don’t even own a bike.

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      • parpol@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        You don’t compare the stats to the population in its entirety

        You do for disease and suicide as it can happen to literally anyone.

        If working for a specific company or being a whistleblower affects those statistics, the company should be held responsible anyway.

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    • Xtallll@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Better than 1 in a thousand, makes it seem less unlikely.

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      • parpol@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        [deleted]

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  • Kedly@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    How is your take also not a conspiracy theory?

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    • NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well, for one thing, the definition of “conspiracy” is “a secret agreement between two or more people to perform an unlawful act”. So… you can’t have a one person conspiracy.

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      • Kedly@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Ah yes, technicalities, the best of defenses

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    • bolexforsoup@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      “Pinned it on the little guy”? It was suicide. There isn’t “blame” but he did it to himself by definition.

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• rsuri@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  There’s 2 kinds of evidence.

  • Circumstantial evidence - relies on an inference to connect it to the conclusion (e.g. guy saying before hand he won’t kill himself).
  • Direct evidence - no additional inference/evidence is needed (e.g. video of a guy going up to the car and shooting him).

  The guy saying he won’t kill himself requires inferring that he’s being truthful when he said it and that he didn’t change his mind. It’s not non-evidence, it does point to suicide being less likely. But it’s far from conclusive.

  They just happened to work at the same company and die right before they could testify on the same thing.

  That’s also a common misunderstanding, at least regarding the first (I’m not as familiar with the second). The first had just testified at a Boeing-led deposition, and had one more day left. Problem with that is - it’s Boeing’s deposition. If they didn’t want him to testify the second day, all they’d need to do is cancel the deposition. Generally you do a deposition to get an opposing witness to make admissions that can be used against them at trial if necessary, and/or demonstrate to the other side that they don’t have a case so you can force them to settle before trial. So Boeing had little reason to kill him before their own deposition was over. The only reason they’d do it then was to silence him generally…but doing it in a way that draws so much suspicion to them seems like an implausibly bad decision. Then again, it is Boeing.

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  • ripcord@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Its also inferring his friend is being truthful when he said that’s what the guy said.

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  • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    there’s no sign of entering the vehicle

    Hey.

    Yeah?

    See this gun?

    I do.

    Kill yourself with it or I will kill everyone in your family. Here is a list of their names and addresses.

    What if I kill you instead?

    Guys who sent me will send someone else.

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• sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  That guy also had a history of mental issues and anxiety. He was away from home experiencing high stress environments, like a court room, and he was looking at another court appearance that day.

  It doesn’t take a genius to see that maybe, just maybe, this is a coincidence instead of murder. He had already given the bulk of his testimony, so I really don’t see the motive here.

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  • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Testimony is thrown out because he was obviously mentally unstable

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    • ripcord@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Is that what happened…?

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      • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Will

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• EvolvedTurtle@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Can I have source plz

  I’m not doubting you it’s just that’s so comedic I need to see it for myself

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