I don’t think using AI to help make a videogame is in any way nefarious or misuse, especially for smaller developers who wouldn’t have the resources to make the game they had in mind otherwise. They don’t deserve to get review bombed or have nasty messages left on all their social media by organized discord groups just because of that, and it’s understandable they’d be worried about it.
Strongly disagree. You’re basically saying smaller developers shouldn’t be punished for theft just because they can’t afford to pay artists.
Ai use, as the article outlined, is based on cultural laundering and IP theft.
So yeah, if you can’t make a game without stealing art, don’t make a game. And if you make a game with stolen art, you absolutely deserve to be review bombed.
And before you say ai generated art isn’t theft, the models are absolutely trained on stolen art
theft
???
Please show me where the material goods were stolen. Piracy is not theft, taking ideas and concepts is not theft.
the models are absolutely trained on stolen art
Downloading isn’t stealing, and in this case the law doesn’t agree with you either, nor does Steam; games developed with AI are legal. You’re entitled to your opinion about the ethics of it, and I think it’s fine if people want to only buy games without AI, but this is an incredibly petty way to rationalize organized harassment against people with no ill intent trying to realize their dreams. The only reason anyone goes after them is because they are softer targets than any of the billionaires and corporations doing actually questionable things with the technology.
Downloading isn’t stealing??? Are you delusional? It is in this case. Just because the law doesn’t recognise it is irrelevant, I’m not talking about legality, I’m talking about the ethics of ripping off small, underpaid artists.
Download a game, or a movie, or an album without the required license. That’s piracy.
If I download a Disney movie, and use clips of it in my game, how do you think a court case would go?
Or if I download idk, a Taylor Swift album and use that in my game without a license, do you think the law would agree with me or Taylor Swift?
And my only excuse is “I couldn’t afford to make my own music so I used yours”?
Using ai is no different. You’re taking someone else’s work, not paying for it, and using it in your training model without permission.
Just because they may have no ill intent is irrelevant, it only speaks to their ignorance on the matter.
“I’m sorry officer I didn’t mean to speed, I had no ill intent”. Ok, you’re still getting a ticket. Ignorance is no excuse.
I’m talking about the ethics
You’re talking about your supposed right to enforce your idea of ethics on people who don’t agree with you, in a situation where there is no universal consensus, there is no law backing you up, and all supposed harms are abstract, indirect, and essentially a dispute about market competition.
Just because they may have no ill intent is irrelevant, it only speaks to their ignorance on the matter.
“I’m sorry officer I didn’t mean to speed, I had no ill intent”. Ok, you’re still getting a ticket. Ignorance is no excuse.
It matters because it’s one clear reason why the people harassing them are assholes. Pretty different from a situation where someone has violated an established law very closely linked to putting people at risk of direct physical harm and that law is being enforced.
dbzer0 users out here defending the capitalist system 😎
Downloading isn’t stealing
Plagiarism is.
There’s no law backing you up on any of this bs. You’re just holding indie devs back from competing with AAA devs, who have absolutely no qualms about using AI. And we all know you won’t stop buying AAA games no matter how much AI they use in development, so you’re also a hypocrite.
You’re playing right into the hands of all these tech corporations who force their own models down our throats. AI could be a tool for creatives to liberate themselves from big media but you’re playing right into their hands with this knee-jerk reactionary nonsense.
Respectfully, fuck right off.
Indie games compete all the time, they make millions. Games are an artform. Any developers using AI are in it for a quick buck and people dont want to reward that versus traditional hardwork.
Indies have been wildly successful for decades before AI has even existed, so dont suddenly pretend its a crutch they need now. And you are down right disrespecting any legitimate artists by defending AI use. It's disgusting.
It's the AAA devs that are going to use AI to pump out more garbage, not the honest indie developers.
Plenty of smaller developers don’t use AI too and we can simply disagree on whether replacing people with ai just so you can make your video game is misuse.
Like is that really even an excuse? I don’t think it’s ok to harass people but if you want to use ai it seems you should accept the social consequences of review bombing given many people do in fact validly see its use as harmful.
Especially when other small developers don’t use it to make games
Well to be fair for quite a few people it’s either them and AI creates a game, or no AI and no game. Though if it were me, I’d use AI art, put it in early access and use the money on art commissions to eventually replace it. Then again, in this situation I wouldn’t be agaisnt an AI disclaimer.
There’s been so much art and so many game produced every year before ChatGPT became big. If not using AI meant that we’ll only get slightly more indie games each year instead several times more indie games each year, I think we’ll manage without.
There’s already more art available than any human could consume in their lifetime. We don’t have to push out slop to keep people entertained
Except people like you call games with premade assets “slop” too. It’s crazy how entitled people act to indie developer’s time.
I will 100% be using AI in my games and I’ll also be lying about it. It’s simply another tool and I’m not going your luddite pearl-clutching hold me back.
There’s no audience for media out there more entitled and more aggressive about their entitlement than gamers.
True, honestly I’m no game dev, but I’d assume it would be hard to get anything “custom” for free. A lot of people don’t wanna have to spend much on a game that might just not work out. To be fair in this sotuation you could also just use free assets and replace them later. I’m just not a fan of the lemmy “black and white” AI is evil approach.
You dont need to be good at art to make a video game that looks good. You can also find art assets online
I have had a harder time making up for not being good at making music, but there are songs online you can use for free
There are tools to make it easier to code, but im not sure how good those are since i have never used them and i already know how to code
You can’t use premade assets because entitled users like yourself will call your game generic slop. You either need the art skills yourself, it you need to recruit a good artist which is not easy.
I think it is nefarious to use AI and developers who use it should be ashamed. No one is organizing hate campaigns, AI literally is so disliked people will rally against it organically.
I’m not going to dredge up the reddit threads providing evidence of it, but afaik there really are popular discord groups with the express purpose of brigading AI users, and I think the people here overtly defending the practice probably know it’s a real thing.
“there’s proof out there I swear I just won’t show it to you and really that means my opinion is right and people in general don’t hate AI I swear guys”
Frankly devs are more likely to get review bombed about ai usage if they tried to hide it. If they’re up front about it then that’s on the users going in to be aware of. Many people don’t like gen ai use at all, but they really hate it when they find out after the fact that it’s been used after thinking otherwise.
catfeeder@piefed.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
Indie gamedev existed for years before AI. You can just sit down and make a game. And if you don’t care enough to actually work on it, why would people even spend their money on “your” product?
Tyrq@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
Because these people do not understand the concept of craft nor care about the process of creating, they are soulless goons looking to gift people. It’s not their fault that society is so fucked that it’s necessary to trick and rob people so they can eat…
catfeeder@piefed.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
Yeah, they don’t understand that the process of learning, of making mistakes and hitting dead-ends as you create your work of art is fucking important! Failures can lead to unexpected changes to your initial idea, and they might improve your work or at least make it iconic (the classic example of the fog in Silent Hill that was added to offset a technical limitation). You can’t have that if the entire process of creating a piece is automated.
dreamkeeper@literature.cafe 1 day ago
Lol. Literally just making stuff up about AI processes. No one other than shovelware developers is using AI to create a final product - and shovelware slop is nothing new. AI is simply another tool in the creation process.
It’s crazy how none of you anti-AI folks actually use AI yet rail against it like you’re experts on the topic.
dreamkeeper@literature.cafe 1 day ago
You’re so full of it. AI is just another tool I can use to save time and be more efficient. It doesn’t produce a finished product, but it’s good for creating a foundation that I can then edit and change into something I want. Don’t try to tell me I’m fucking “soulless” just because you’re scared of the big new tech. I’ve been programming for decades.
You aren’t entitled to my time. Luddites like you also shat on cameras when they were first invented too. Your arguments against AI prove that you have no clue how to use it and just want to insult anyone who does.
wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
Even today, people value photos differently than paintings, at least in part due to the amount of effort that goes into each.
There’s no reasonable argument to preventing people from having the information up front to make the same sort of value decision about a game.
You’re free to use AI, just declare it. The purchasing public is free to decide if that changes how much they’re willing to pay for your game.
golden@sh.itjust.works 19 hours ago
Games used to be programmed in low level code, if you don’t care enough to hand code your game and instead rely on machines to “compile” it for you, why even spend money on “your” product that’s all high level machine generated code?
catfeeder@piefed.blahaj.zone 10 hours ago
There’s a difference between coding your game in high level code + making all the other stuff like assets, levels and music
and
asking thiefgpt to
generateplagiarize assets and music for you.chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
Games bring together a lot of different mediums and require a diverse set of skills. So for instance someone might be great at drawing, and have a great idea for a game that uses their art, but they have a hard time with coding, and use AI to handle that part of it for them in a way that’s more flexible than some other more restrictive solution like RPG Maker, which might make it closer to their vision for the kind of game they wanted to make. I think such a game could be worth playing, assuming the person making it cares about what they are making and puts their own work into it.
Spawn7586@lemmy.world 1 day ago
That’s kinda fallacious as an argument. AI cannot create good code, it CAN be used to create code, but requires.expert to fix the tons of mistakes and simply bad coding solutions it comes up with. If you don’t have the skills it’s better to use a tool made to help you with that with its limitations (rpg maker in your example) rather than use a tool made to aid already expert users (that even they say it actually creates more work for them lol). I write code myself and LLMs simply suck at coding. They can create “art” but it’s all the same and you can spot it on their steam page when they do. Honestly, I’m not even angry at them for thinking the same way as you do: it’s just that those coding solutions are advertised as such, and people are simply ignoring the expert in the field that tell them they can’t actually do that. If you try that road you will either create something that doesn’t work or something that will put its users at risk (by creating trojan backdoors in theor system or sharing sensitive information) and that’s something I can’t simply condone.
chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
You’re kind of right, in that it’s not a total solution right now and you probably won’t be able to vibe code a whole game (except a really simple one maybe) with no knowledge. But that doesn’t mean it couldn’t lower the skill floor for someone. I’m assuming the person in my scenario would be also using an engine like Unity or Godot, maybe asking the AI to walk them through how to do what they want, write simple scripts and explain/suggest syntax. That shouldn’t have too much risk of generating inadvertent backdoors, and I think LLMs are pretty good at explaining basic code. Game engines already enforce the basic design structure, which will make it easier to avoid big unfixable mistakes and do everything in small pieces a LLM is less likely to fuck up.
The same is true with using it for art; you’re right that a lot of AI art on Steam is obvious and looks the same, but really good AI assisted art isn’t. The amount of skill and effort required for that is not zero, but is less than it might be otherwise. I’m assuming there are a lot of games out there where you just can’t tell, and because there’s so much fear of backlash it just isn’t disclosed.
catfeeder@piefed.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
I don’t know a single self-respecting artist who would use AI though. Artists are literally the most harmed people by the LLMs lol.
Other than that, I agree with what @spawn7586@lemmy.world said - if you don’t know how to code, LLMs will generate the most unplayable game in existence.
agent_nycto@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Or, like in the past, people figure out solutions to the limitations and make something new. The fog in silent Hill is an example.
I’d rather pay for a game that looks shittier and handmade than ai garbage.
golden@sh.itjust.works 19 hours ago
Silent Hill was made by a huge studio with large financial backing.
I’d rather pay for a game made by a solo Indie dev who used AI to help them over corpo garbage.
warm@kbin.earth 23 hours ago
I'd rather pay for neither.
Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world 1 day ago
And some people even outsource their defense of AI slop to AI.
chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
I promise you, none of what I write here is AI, I’m against doing that