Comment on If fossil fuels aren't vegan that would mean almost nobody is actually vegan.

Remember_the_tooth@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

• atomicbocks@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Hmmm… but taking your argument to the opposite end; the normal consumption of a cucumber may not typically harm animals but I think there is an argument to be had that the normal consumption, and production, of fossil fuels typically does.

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  • lalo@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    It’s a common viewpoint among vegans that systems that depend on animal exploitation should be abolished. On the other hand, systems that contain animal exploitation should be improved.

    I’ll give two examples with human animals so it can be clear: Slavery? Should be abolished. People getting ran over and killed by cars? We should improve that.

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    • chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      The ones I always come back to are pollinator-dependent crops such as fruits and tree nuts. Wild and feral pollinators are not abundant enough to sustain the level of production we presently demand in these crops. Presumably, if more people were to become vegan then we would demand them even more.

      From what I know, vegans oppose the transportation of pollinators for pollinating these crops. Yet it seems most vegans eat plenty of them (apples, peaches, plums, almonds, avocados, etc).

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      • mathemachristian@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Wild and feral pollinators are not abundant enough to sustain the level of production we presently demand in these crops

        and why might that bee???

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      • lalo@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Do those crops depend on transportation of pollinators? To me it seems like they don’t.

        By your own admission, there are natural pollinators. We can also manually pollinate them, which reinforces my point that systems that *contain* exploitation should be improved.

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    • Soulcreator@programming.dev ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Can you give some real world examples of systems that contain animal exploitation that vegans would want to see improved? I’m not sure I completely follow that point.

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      • lalo@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Animal manure as fertilizer in farming. We can use fertilizers that don’t depend on animals to be made.

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• Krudler@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Is any of what you are saying material though?

  It’s kind of revelatory that vegan is a shifting term, that means whatever it wants to mean for the believer.

  I tell vegans all the time that in order to have their potato chips brought to them, first they have to have millions of hectares of fields destroyed, planted with a monoculture potato crop, sprayed with pesticides, harvested by diesel equipment, made in a factory with pollutants, placed on trucks which ship all over the country.

  Swallow a fly, oh my God the world is ending. Kill a couple thousand things on the way to get your vegan chips, let’s not talk about that.

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  • Warl0k3@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Well that’s… needlessly hostile?

    Vegans are aware of the damage the supply chain does, hence “buy local” being such a common phrase and the push to support small local farms. I’m not sure what you’re accomplishing besides hilighting that capitalism is an awful economic structure that incentives profit over environment, which sure good message, but most people choosing to adopt such a culturally despised practice are going to be aware of the blindingly obvious externalities already.

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  • idiomaddict@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    It’s kind of revelatory that vegan is a shifting term, that means whatever it wants to mean for the believer.

    Really? It’s not new, at least. Vegans love to disagree about what specific things are vegan- some are cool with honey, some are cool with nestle products made without animal products, and some are cool with anything they don’t pay for. Many aren’t cool with any of that, but don’t think twice about killing a mosquito in their home.

    It’s an individual choice and you’ve got to decide what you care about and prioritize that.

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    • eupraxia@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      This, 100%. For some reason people imagine vegans as an ideologically aligned group rather than a bunch of people making their own varied decisions for their own varied reasons. Then when inconsistencies come up between vegans they’ll decry it all as performative.

      Setting a unifying standard for a broad group of people that they’ll never meet and then reacting to the shock of them failing to meet that standard is a common rhetorical tactic in other contexts, no surprises it turns up here too.

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