You know, at one point during this war, I thought, “they’re compelled to service, most of them probably don’t wanna be there, and we can’t hold them responsible for the orders of the state.”
Then I saw some interviews with some IDF soldiers. Then I saw more interviews. And it’s the same in recent interviews: they are happy to be there, and they absolutely love genocide Palestinians.
If you’re forced to live in Israel you won’t be publicly voicing your opinions if they’re against the norm. One of the worst insults is “deserter” for those that did not wish to serve and “leftist” if you go against the murder of innocent people. Sadly being one or the other means problems for you down the road when trying to find a job and generally living a life here. It’s a small country, word gets around quickly and you still have to live here if you don’t have any other citizenship.
I didn’t just see one interview. It was dozens of interviews over the last 20 or so years. If it was just one piece, I would probably agree with you. And I’m sure there are members of the ideas who are not there willingly and do not support its goals.
But I have a preponderance of evidence which supports my position.
Your evidence supports that there are members of the IDF who are enthusiastically engaged with what they’re doing. I am not debating that- i think you’re right.
But it’s important to remember this absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because you haven’t seen interviews of IDF members objecting to what they are doing does not mean those members do not exist. I would expect the IDF to have systems in place to minimize the external visibility if any such objections, which makes a generalization like that dangerous.
There been multiple polls that show the vast majority of Israelis are behind the genocide of the Palestinians. To think the IDF thinks anything differently is absurd. These people arguing with you are living in a fantasy world.
Even if it were the case that they didn’t want to be there, “just following orders” is not an acceptable excuse for committing a genocide. The morally correct thing to do if you’re compelled to service in the IDF is to refuse and face the consequences, because they cannot be worse than the moral injury of being tasked with the murder of innocent children.
Even for the ones compelled to be there who have little (not no) choice, it doesn’t mean the IDF isn’t a terrorist organization. Other terrorist groups use force to get soldiers, yet we don’t pull our punches calling them out.
If I was a news agency with an agenda I wouldn’t be broadcasting the interviews that are negative either. Those you will find on foreign TV channels, 10-20 years from now after those who are currently serving finish their mandatory service and immigrate elsewhere. Every once in a while some event happens which becomes difficult to cover up. Like the Pilot Letters from 2003 and 2023, but it is the exception rather then the norm.
There are older documentaries where older IDF recount war crimes and being proud of it… this been going since the creation of this project … the two main forces that created the IDF are UK Registered terrorist organization.
My friend, it’s really important that you get the subjects correct. We were talking about Israeli soldiers here, and even if you generalize, Israelis. We are not talking about Jewish people on the whole.
floo@retrolemmy.com 1 day ago
You know, at one point during this war, I thought, “they’re compelled to service, most of them probably don’t wanna be there, and we can’t hold them responsible for the orders of the state.”
Then I saw some interviews with some IDF soldiers. Then I saw more interviews. And it’s the same in recent interviews: they are happy to be there, and they absolutely love genocide Palestinians.
Fuck the IDF
paultimate14@lemmy.world 1 day ago
They aren’t going to let you see the unenthusiastic ones.
ayyy@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
They don’t censor foreign internet in Israel. Protesters of the regime can be heard from on the outside, there just aren’t that many of them.
CriticalMiss@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
If you’re forced to live in Israel you won’t be publicly voicing your opinions if they’re against the norm. One of the worst insults is “deserter” for those that did not wish to serve and “leftist” if you go against the murder of innocent people. Sadly being one or the other means problems for you down the road when trying to find a job and generally living a life here. It’s a small country, word gets around quickly and you still have to live here if you don’t have any other citizenship.
floo@retrolemmy.com 1 day ago
I didn’t just see one interview. It was dozens of interviews over the last 20 or so years. If it was just one piece, I would probably agree with you. And I’m sure there are members of the ideas who are not there willingly and do not support its goals.
But I have a preponderance of evidence which supports my position.
paultimate14@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Your evidence supports that there are members of the IDF who are enthusiastically engaged with what they’re doing. I am not debating that- i think you’re right.
But it’s important to remember this absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because you haven’t seen interviews of IDF members objecting to what they are doing does not mean those members do not exist. I would expect the IDF to have systems in place to minimize the external visibility if any such objections, which makes a generalization like that dangerous.
njm1314@lemmy.world 1 day ago
There been multiple polls that show the vast majority of Israelis are behind the genocide of the Palestinians. To think the IDF thinks anything differently is absurd. These people arguing with you are living in a fantasy world.
jol@discuss.tchncs.de 1 day ago
I still think it’s basically brainwshing by government propaganda.
floo@retrolemmy.com 1 day ago
Probably. Oude like some further analysis on that, but I am definitely inclined to agree with you.
Salvo@aussie.zone 20 hours ago
Brainwashing can only go so far. At some point, (such as targeting civilian children) any sane soldier will crack and say “No”.
Schmoo@slrpnk.net 23 hours ago
Even if it were the case that they didn’t want to be there, “just following orders” is not an acceptable excuse for committing a genocide. The morally correct thing to do if you’re compelled to service in the IDF is to refuse and face the consequences, because they cannot be worse than the moral injury of being tasked with the murder of innocent children.
Cethin@lemmy.zip 7 hours ago
Even for the ones compelled to be there who have little (not no) choice, it doesn’t mean the IDF isn’t a terrorist organization. Other terrorist groups use force to get soldiers, yet we don’t pull our punches calling them out.
CriticalMiss@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
If I was a news agency with an agenda I wouldn’t be broadcasting the interviews that are negative either. Those you will find on foreign TV channels, 10-20 years from now after those who are currently serving finish their mandatory service and immigrate elsewhere. Every once in a while some event happens which becomes difficult to cover up. Like the Pilot Letters from 2003 and 2023, but it is the exception rather then the norm.
Doorbook@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
There are older documentaries where older IDF recount war crimes and being proud of it… this been going since the creation of this project … the two main forces that created the IDF are UK Registered terrorist organization.
FenrirIII@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Brainwashed by religion and nationalism
floo@retrolemmy.com 1 day ago
Both of them absolutely were. That’s not what I’m arguing here.
kokesh@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
fodor@lemmy.zip 15 hours ago
My friend, it’s really important that you get the subjects correct. We were talking about Israeli soldiers here, and even if you generalize, Israelis. We are not talking about Jewish people on the whole.