YSK about Jury Nullification, if you're an American and you don't, look it up.

Submitted ⁨⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨andyburke@fedia.io⁩ to ⁨youshouldknow@lemmy.world⁩

[Jury Nullification] is when the jury in a criminal trial gives a verdict of not guilty even though they think a defendant has broken the law. The jury's reasons may include the belief that the law itself is unjust

Until the wealthy and powerful are held to account, why punish your fellow everyday citizens? Use your brain. Decide if what they're charging people with is suppression or actually keeping society safe.

When those prosecutors start losing these cases, maybe they will start to rethink who they are focusing on.

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peoplebeproblems@midwest.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
But remember if you’re on jury selection, you don’t know what jury nullification is.

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- Rekorse@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  You are meant to “nullify” silently.
  
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- Dragon@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Apparently you can get in trouble for lying on those questionnaires
  
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  - PM_Your_Nudes_Please@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Who would know that you lied? There’s a reason “I do not recall” is a popular answer in court; The courts can’t prove that you remember something, because it’s entirely subjective. Without being mind readers, there’s no way for them to prove that you know something.
    
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  - cows_are_underrated@feddit.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You could have read about it the day after getting elected to the jury so…
    
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  - peoplebeproblems@midwest.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Sure. Good luck proving it.
    
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- Ledericas@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  you can say you show bias towards the case, by citing any reasons, you will get strike from the juror pool additionally, they dont even pay you well for your time, you can easily lose alot money a day for not working your job, in alot of places they can pay you a pittance of 5-15/day, in cali its 15 only a day.
  
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RedditWanderer@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Unpopular take but despite it being a popular thing, we want jury nullification to come from individual conclusions that this law does no apply despite the circumstances, and not because they know they can. Every study ever has shown that people who know about jury nullification tend to dismiss evidence more often, and are more easily deceived by a sympathetic/ non-sympathetic looking defendant. It’s not even a law, it’s the result of the fact juries can’t be persecuted for their decisions so really they can do whatever they want. This is enough to know that technically you can “nullify the law”.

Saying the law doesn’t actually apply despite the person having done the thing the law says not to do is very different from saying the punishment should be nil. This could also keep you from ever serving on a jury and telling others about this in certain circumstances could be a crime. All the legal minds who looked into this agree it should still remain a thing, but it shouldn’t be told to jurors explicitly. When you serve you swear to uphold the law, so it’s tricky to nullify without purgery except for very very special cases.

This is not a good YSK, you should understand what the law is as a juror.

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- Dubiousx99@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I disagree, we also want people to nullify laws that are unjust, such as prosecuting a woman who decides to have an abortion. This is one of the means the people retain to fight tyranny.
  
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  - RedditWanderer@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    This post does not say jury nullification shouldn’t exist/be allowed. It says the opposite.
    
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- cm0002@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  That goes both ways, people can convict without evidence
  
  There’s a fail safe for this, a judge can override a juries guilty vote but not a ruling of innocence.
  
  Still, not ideal because it comes down to one person not agreeing with the jury, but at least there is some protection
  
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- Cephalotrocity@biglemmowski.win ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  so it’s tricky to nullify without purgery except for very very special cases.
  
  Assuming you meant perjury, it is not tricky in the slightest. You vote your conscience and don’t say something stupid like “I lied during voire dire, nyah ah ahhh!”.
  
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- AtariDump@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Image
  
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- Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  we want jury nullification to come from individual conclusions that this law does not apply despite the circumstances, and not because they know they can.
  
  There is an ongoing shift towards fascism, and at least for now the courts still have power over whether or not people get to walk free.
  
  So there is more to it than your letting on. We’re gonna see cases of people who have done illegal things because the fascists in power decided to make existence defacto illegal for people.
  
  An example of this is the bans on transgender people from using bathrooms other than their assigned sex. If I’m ever a juror on a case like that, I’m fucking voting not guilty, and everybody else should too.
  
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  - slackassassin@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Or it will be used to let fascists off, because their supporters will vote fucking not guilty and say that everyone else should too.
    
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- prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  That goes both ways, people can convict without evidence
  
  This doesn’t seem right… My understanding of jury nullification is that it ends with the charges being dismissed.
  
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  - spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    They’re saying that a defendant can be convicted with minimal or circumstantial evidence. Because, much like they can decide the law shouldn’t apply when they think the defendant did it, they can decide the defendant is guilty even if the evidence doesn’t say that.
    
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- CuriousRefugee@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  This is really important. You can disagree with laws, but that feels like a terrible reason to nullify a legitimate guilty decision.
  
  In addition, sentencing is (usually) separate from conviction and is the judge’s decision, although a jury can recommend a sentence. If someone is found guilty of theft for stealing a loaf of bread, they’re not going to get 20 years in jail except in musicals.
  
  IMO, nullification should be used as an absolute last resort. Have a sympathetic defendant accused of second degree murder? Knock it down to a lower-level manslaughter and find them guilty. The sentencing of that might have a low maximum.
  
  There are only a few rare problems that actually need nullification. It (generally) shouldn’t just be used for laws that you disagree with. One such problem is mandatory sentencing minimums. If someone steals that load of bread and they’ve already been convicted twice for theft or other crimes, they may be subject to things like 3-strike laws and get a sentence that is WAY more than they deserve, and the judge can’t do anything about it. The judge might feel that they deserve to give only 20 hours of community service as a sentence, but they legally have to sentence the convicted to 6 months in prison. Nullification is probably warranted there. Someone found with 1.25 ounces of marijuana in a state where only 1 ounce is legal, so they get charged with a drug distribution felony? And the judge/prosecutor refuses to lower the charge? Maybe find them not guilty. But it should be the last resort, not the first option.
  
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  - Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    You can disagree with laws, but that feels like a terrible reason to nullify a legitimate guilty decision.
    
    No, it can often be a good reason. I disagree with laws that would make it illegal for trans people to use their preferred bathroom. They punish women for not being feminine enough, it forcibly outs trans people. It’s dangerous and stupid.
    
    Anybody who votes not guilty in such a case is right to do so.
    
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  - prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    
    This is really important. You can disagree with laws, but that feels like a terrible reason to nullify a legitimate guilty decision.
    
    And what if the law is “trans people should not exist”?
    
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- slazer2au@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  And it’s not like the charges are dropped if jury nullification takes place.
  
  Both sides can appeal the decision and when it gets to an appeals judge they will likely look at the case and say ‘yea, this should be tried again’
  
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  - deo@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Is an appealing an innocent verdict not double jeopardy?
    
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Scott_of_the_Arctic@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
If you find yourself on jury duty in a very specific case (you know which one) you should know about this but pretend like you don’t.

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Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
It’s also worth knowing how to do it, as it isn’t exactly straightforward.

beyondcourts.org/…/Jury-Nullification-Toolkit-Eng…

If make it known that you know about it, and are intentionally doing it, you could face legal issues.

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- Ledericas@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  they can threaten you, but they cant force you to choose a verdict other than what the prosecutors want, which is choosing not-guilty in despite of the evidence.
  
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Battle_Masker@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
this is in light of Luigi Mangione’s recent court appearance isn’t it?

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- slackassassin@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Yep.
  
  You should be applying this to all juries you serve on. Accept those summonses. Get on those juries and use your brains.
  
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Ledericas@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
they choose jurors specifically that wont “jury nullification” i know quite a few people who were chosen on the basis: if you dont question thier authority(the ones choosing jurors), they love the pushovers, the retirees and govt workers, because they know they have nothing else to do".

other issues if the judges ego is not stroked: you’re trying to get out of jury duty, they might force you to be on one regardless. i know subreddit and a forum that has a whole discussion around jury duty for each state/city. apparently some states are so desperate for jurors, they ignore most excuses.

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makeshiftreaper@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I will also warn that you are likely committing perjury when they ask at the jury if they have an inability or refusal to follow the instructions or the law of the judge. Now this is difficult to prove, but it’s not something risk free

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- Cephalotrocity@biglemmowski.win ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  You’d think so, but no. You cannot be punished as a juror for voting your conscience. So long as you don’t say “I intentionally lied during voir dire to sabotage due process” they cannot even ask you why you voted the way you did unless you volunteer for questions afterwards.
  
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  - makeshiftreaper@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You’d be surprised at how stupid people can be. Obviously we’re all dancing around one case and I assure the members of that jury will be pestered about it for a long time after
    
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- prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  If you actually believe that the person your judging does not deserve punishment, then this is a risk that you should be willing to take.
  
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- Rivalarrival@lemmy.today ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  That is not actually true.
  
  The right to a jury trial is guaranteed to the accused by the constitution. You are empowered by that constitution. You owe a constitutional duty to the accused; not to the court, judge, or government.
  
  The law is not limited to the acts of Congress and the States that the defendant is accused of violating. When the judge asks if you can follow the law, you are free to remember that the "Constitution is part of that law.* Where legislated law is in conflict with your constitutional responsibulity, your responsibility supersedes that legislation entirely.
  
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finitebanjo@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Nah, I’m good lol

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- stoly@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Not sure why you’re trying to give up your rights, but ok.
  
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  - finitebanjo@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I have the right to do a lot of things which would never come up.
    
    I can and should review jury procedures when and if they call on me, but generally I do side with the laws. Like, as a general rule, murderers should go to prison, for example.
    
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pelespirit@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I think the judge can override the jury though, right? Ianal, but I thought the judge could do that for any case.

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- PhilipTheBucket@ponder.cat ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The judge cannot. They can prejudice the jury severely through unequal treatment of evidence, witnesses, and through clearly showing their bias at trial, which in practice can affect the verdict dramatically. On the other hand, doing that makes it a lot easier to overturn the verdict on appeal.
  
  The case which unequivocally established the right of juries to countermand the judge was fucking wild.
  
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushel's_Case
  
  The judge was putting William Penn and William Mead on trial for leading an unlawful religious assembly. The jury found the defendants, basically, guilty of “speaking,” but not of the crime they had been accused of. The judge blew his stack and ordered the defendants to be tied up (?) and the jury imprisoned without food, water, or heat. After two days with no food, the jury returned, and amended their verdict to “not guilty.” The judge got pissed again, ordered the jury to be fined (?) instead, and one of the jurors said he definitely wasn’t paying that, and appealed the whole judgement.
  
  The appeals court sided with the jury. People remember Bushel (the juror) and his name is remembered as linked with the principle of law, and all people remember about the judge was that he was an asshole.
  
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  - RobotToaster@mander.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The irony is, despite there being a plaque celebrating it in the old bailey, people have been arrested for holding signs directly quoting that plaque.
    
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  - pelespirit@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    That’s hilarious, the jury wasn’t fucking around. I wonder if the US uses that law since we were under the crown at the time? Did we inherit any laws from before we claimed independence? I never thought about that.
    
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